Comments on: Lakeland and Toronto - Part 2 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/ Random wonderings about God and Life Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:41:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: rupert http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13080 rupert Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:21:27 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13080 <img src="http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/france-07-6-134.JPG" alt="Rupert" WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=75 HSPACE=15 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT /> <FONT color=blue> Agreed. </FONT> Rupert
Agreed.

]]> By: Peter Kirk http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13074 Peter Kirk Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:11:10 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13074 Rupert, indeed I don't consider God TV guiltless in this matter, although we can't really be sure because there are a lot of facts we can only speculate on. Rupert, indeed I don’t consider God TV guiltless in this matter, although we can’t really be sure because there are a lot of facts we can only speculate on.

]]> By: Lakeland and Toronto - Part 3 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13035 Lakeland and Toronto - Part 3 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:13:13 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13035 [...] my last couple of posts (1 & 2), reflecting on the Lakeland Outpouring, and trying to learn some lessons by contrasting to [...] [...] my last couple of posts (1 & 2), reflecting on the Lakeland Outpouring, and trying to learn some lessons by contrasting to [...]

]]> By: rupert http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13029 rupert Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:33:09 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13029 <img src="http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/france-07-6-134.JPG" alt="Rupert" WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=75 HSPACE=15 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT /> <FONT color=blue> I agree Alastair ... i have questioned the assumption that is found in much charismatic theology, that if we pray and have some great meetings with the Holy Spirit moving, then thousands will come flocking... That seems to be much of the assumption behind these kinds of revivals... Of course, as we engage with our communities, we need the Holy Spirit to move, but i wonder if that looks very different? </FONT> Rupert
I agree Alastair … i have questioned the assumption that is found in much charismatic theology, that if we pray and have some great meetings with the Holy Spirit moving, then thousands will come flocking…
That seems to be much of the assumption behind these kinds of revivals…

Of course, as we engage with our communities, we need the Holy Spirit to move, but i wonder if that looks very different?

]]> By: rupert http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13028 rupert Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:29:14 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13028 <img src="http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/france-07-6-134.JPG" alt="Rupert" WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=75 HSPACE=15 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT /> <FONT color=blue> Peter - thanks for the comment and stopping by here. I appreciate the push back ... I think you are right that Toronto should be described in the present tense and not past. I was last there in 2003, and from what I read it continues today. I am probably guilty of over egging the GodTV role, to make a point, and I am sure you are right that GodTV didn't drop the lakeland coverage over Todd's moral failings. However, i would still hold that GodTV bear a fair amount of responsibility here. How would Lakeland been different if it hadn't been screened on TV? How differently would it grown, or things been addressed before it crashed as it so tragically has? How much of what actually happened was hyped up by the TV coverage? </FONT> Rupert
Peter - thanks for the comment and stopping by here.
I appreciate the push back … I think you are right that Toronto should be described in the present tense and not past. I was last there in 2003, and from what I read it continues today.

I am probably guilty of over egging the GodTV role, to make a point, and I am sure you are right that GodTV didn’t drop the lakeland coverage over Todd’s moral failings. However, i would still hold that GodTV bear a fair amount of responsibility here. How would Lakeland been different if it hadn’t been screened on TV? How differently would it grown, or things been addressed before it crashed as it so tragically has? How much of what actually happened was hyped up by the TV coverage?

]]> By: Alastair http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13010 Alastair Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:35:29 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-13010 Hey Rupert, thanks for blogging on this. I agree with you, if the Holy Spirit doesn't move the church towards mission, what is the point? Sure, for individuals there may be times of healing and retreat in the Spirit, but surely for the Church the empowerment and presence of the Spirit must push it out in Mission. When I read Acts thats what I see. Hey Rupert, thanks for blogging on this. I agree with you, if the Holy Spirit doesn’t move the church towards mission, what is the point? Sure, for individuals there may be times of healing and retreat in the Spirit, but surely for the Church the empowerment and presence of the Spirit must push it out in Mission. When I read Acts thats what I see.

]]> By: jesus wept: What happened to Todd Bentley? http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-12811 jesus wept: What happened to Todd Bentley? Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:27:20 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-12811 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] has some very calm and thoughtful points to make. And Rupert's Lakeland and Toronto Part 1 and Part 2 does a subtle not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater job.I'm still worrying, though, about [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] has some very calm and thoughtful points to make. And Rupert’s Lakeland and Toronto Part 1 and Part 2 does a subtle not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater job.I’m still worrying, though, about [...]

]]> By: Peter Kirk http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-12809 Peter Kirk Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:23:32 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-12809 Thanks for this insightful discussion (and for the link). This agrees with my experience, in both cases at a distance, of Lakeland and Toronto. When I was hauled to my feet in Dudley there was certainly a real need for the space, as hundreds were waiting for a touch in an overcrowded hall at midnight. Just a couple of points here. I don't think you should write of Toronto in the past. The extreme manifestations and the controversy may be in the past, but the "emphasis on the internal, a renovation and healing of the heart" continues. Its longevity continues to this day. I think you have misrepresented the role of God TV at Lakeland. Yes, it was "dropped by the TV schedulers", but only when Todd Bentley moved on because he really needed a break (this was before his moral failings came to light) and the meetings moved back into a church building. You can argue that the whole thing was built up by God TV and brought down by them, and perhaps that they tried to keep it going when it should have been allowed to come to an end in July, but not that they abandoned it while it was still going. Thanks for this insightful discussion (and for the link). This agrees with my experience, in both cases at a distance, of Lakeland and Toronto. When I was hauled to my feet in Dudley there was certainly a real need for the space, as hundreds were waiting for a touch in an overcrowded hall at midnight.

Just a couple of points here.

I don’t think you should write of Toronto in the past. The extreme manifestations and the controversy may be in the past, but the “emphasis on the internal, a renovation and healing of the heart” continues. Its longevity continues to this day.

I think you have misrepresented the role of God TV at Lakeland. Yes, it was “dropped by the TV schedulers”, but only when Todd Bentley moved on because he really needed a break (this was before his moral failings came to light) and the meetings moved back into a church building. You can argue that the whole thing was built up by God TV and brought down by them, and perhaps that they tried to keep it going when it should have been allowed to come to an end in July, but not that they abandoned it while it was still going.

]]> By: rupert http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-12801 rupert Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:37:39 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-12801 <img src="http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/france-07-6-134.JPG" alt="Rupert" WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=75 HSPACE=15 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT /> <FONT color=blue> John - thanks for stopping by. Yes i agree ... i don't think revival is a good term at all, from that perspective. In the case of Toronto, i think it was much for the church, to reinvigorate and inspire. That is a good thing but it must move us out towards mission, which i am not sure it did. Where i am going with this series, is that we must be engaged with our communities, our towns and cities, being good news, and in that context we want the Holy Spirit to move through us... </FONT> Rupert
John - thanks for stopping by.
Yes i agree … i don’t think revival is a good term at all, from that perspective. In the case of Toronto, i think it was much for the church, to reinvigorate and inspire. That is a good thing but it must move us out towards mission, which i am not sure it did.
Where i am going with this series, is that we must be engaged with our communities, our towns and cities, being good news, and in that context we want the Holy Spirit to move through us…

]]> By: john heasley http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-12800 john heasley Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:29:17 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2008/09/19/lakeland-and-toronto-part-2/#comment-12800 One of the biggest things I notice about these revivals is that up until a couple of years ago, I had never heard of them ( I was not a christian) and generally most of the world right now has no idea that lakeland happened. What is the point of revival, is it just for christians??? Has there been a revival if christians are the only ones that know it has happened? One of the biggest things I notice about these revivals is that up until a couple of years ago, I had never heard of them ( I was not a christian) and generally most of the world right now has no idea that lakeland happened. What is the point of revival, is it just for christians??? Has there been a revival if christians are the only ones that know it has happened?

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