Comments on: Parables of the Kingdom - The Unmerciful Servant http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/ Random wonderings about God, life, church, journey, books, the bible and anything else that catches my attention. Fri, 05 Sep 2008 23:16:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Alastair http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-2080 Alastair Sat, 08 Sep 2007 15:14:12 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-2080 I am not sure I can believe in a torturing God either. But I'm not sure the point of this parable is to talk about the character of God, but rather to talk about the character of a person belonging to God's Kingdom. Ultimately, I think sin turns in on itself and any punishment in "hell" will be self-inflicted. I am not sure I can believe in a torturing God either. But I’m not sure the point of this parable is to talk about the character of God, but rather to talk about the character of a person belonging to God’s Kingdom. Ultimately, I think sin turns in on itself and any punishment in “hell” will be self-inflicted.

]]> By: Andrew Jones (?Sr) http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1920 Andrew Jones (?Sr) Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:19:35 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1920 I am just not convinced I can believe in a god who 'tortures' his people! Or that 'hell' is a sign of his passion!! It seems that if this is the 'good news' it isn't so good for the vast majority! I am just not convinced I can believe in a god who ‘tortures’ his people! Or that ‘hell’ is a sign of his passion!! It seems that if this is the ‘good news’ it isn’t so good for the vast majority!

]]> By: Andrew Jones Jr. http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1915 Andrew Jones Jr. Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:34:40 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1915 I like what Rupert said about Les Miserables: The bishop hoped that by handing over his silver, and protecting the culprit, he would save the culprit's soul. The gift is supposed to break the hold of sin inside us. If it does not, then we are not free. Sin still holds us and the consequences will come to us. I like this parable because it encourages me to see a God who has clear sense of justice-in-the-heart, passionately hates double-standards, yet sacrificially helps people out. It blows out of the water the myth that free grace creates monsters who do whatever they like. Those monsters never received the free grace in the way God requires. The bank-balance appeared clear, but the heart was not stirred, and so they were not changed. No rebirth, no growth. Mind if I stoke the fire a bit more? Like G.K.Chesterton, I am glad hell exists because it shows we have a passionate God who means business. I would probably rather be annihilated than suffer eternally, (actually I am so lazy that sometimes I wish I could just not exist and not cause or experience any trouble), and any sane non-believer should be a Buddhist and should think the same. IMHO. But in a deeper way I am glad that God deplores that laziness and thinks the threat of hell is worth the risk. Since I have to live eternally I guess I'd better make the most of it :) . Also, when I look at the big picture - the aesthetics of the universe as a whole, I am glad that there is a dirty swamp in which to put dirty toads, especially those who think that it is good enough to "realise" that the dirt is merely a matter of perspective. Maybe it is more merciful to put a dirty toad in the swamp than in the palace. Makes the whole perspective thing easier. I wonder what kind of rationalisations the wicked-servant went though in his head. And I do that all the time. I can tell when I am doing it because I feel profoundly shlte and hopeless, which is different from being merely weary or depressed. Its my swamp. But there is hope as long as I realise that there is non-swamp as well as swamp, and that they are distinct things :) There is a good king with magical powers of restoration (not a princess I hasten to add). That's my take. Does that make me cruel? [God will be fair though.] I like what Rupert said about Les Miserables:
The bishop hoped that by handing over his silver, and protecting the culprit, he would save the culprit’s soul.
The gift is supposed to break the hold of sin inside us. If it does not, then we are not free. Sin still holds us and the consequences will come to us.
I like this parable because it encourages me to see a God who has clear sense of justice-in-the-heart, passionately hates double-standards, yet sacrificially helps people out. It blows out of the water the myth that free grace creates monsters who do whatever they like. Those monsters never received the free grace in the way God requires. The bank-balance appeared clear, but the heart was not stirred, and so they were not changed. No rebirth, no growth.

Mind if I stoke the fire a bit more?
Like G.K.Chesterton, I am glad hell exists because it shows we have a passionate God who means business. I would probably rather be annihilated than suffer eternally, (actually I am so lazy that sometimes I wish I could just not exist and not cause or experience any trouble), and any sane non-believer should be a Buddhist and should think the same. IMHO.
But in a deeper way I am glad that God deplores that laziness and thinks the threat of hell is worth the risk. Since I have to live eternally I guess I’d better make the most of it :) . Also, when I look at the big picture - the aesthetics of the universe as a whole, I am glad that there is a dirty swamp in which to put dirty toads, especially those who think that it is good enough to “realise” that the dirt is merely a matter of perspective. Maybe it is more merciful to put a dirty toad in the swamp than in the palace. Makes the whole perspective thing easier. I wonder what kind of rationalisations the wicked-servant went though in his head. And I do that all the time. I can tell when I am doing it because I feel profoundly shlte and hopeless, which is different from being merely weary or depressed. Its my swamp.

But there is hope as long as I realise that there is non-swamp as well as swamp, and that they are distinct things :) There is a good king with magical powers of restoration (not a princess I hasten to add).

That’s my take. Does that make me cruel?
[God will be fair though.]

]]> By: andrew http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1906 andrew Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:30:26 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1906 Maybe like Tanya, visual impact is often more striking than an audio one. For me it was the photo - hands through bar with fag hanging down. It was firstly repellant (imprisonment) then tantalising. Was the cigarette suggesting something of the smell or aura and cloying nature of unforgiveness? And what also of the internal harm done to myself and others? So it got very sensual for me, the body got involved too! Maybe like Tanya, visual impact is often more striking than an audio one. For me it was the photo - hands through bar with fag hanging down. It was firstly repellant (imprisonment) then tantalising. Was the cigarette suggesting something of the smell or aura and cloying nature of unforgiveness? And what also of the internal harm done to myself and others? So it got very sensual for me, the body got involved too!

]]> By: andrew http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1905 andrew Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:22:15 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1905 It certainly has resonance with a number of Jesus's other parables. I think the phrase 'missing the boat' comes to mind -the first man doesn't see it and has to be (re-)awakened to the existence of the kingdom and it's world. It certainly has resonance with a number of Jesus’s other parables. I think the phrase ‘missing the boat’ comes to mind -the first man doesn’t see it and has to be (re-)awakened to the existence of the kingdom and it’s world.

]]> By: Alastair http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1894 Alastair Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:01:11 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1894 This is one of my favourite parables and I enjoyed listening to the three reflections on the parable. However I did feel that the main point of the parable was pretty much ignored...it seems to me that this parable is not about forgiveness but about unforgiveness. I am guessing that no Jew would be surprised to hear about a story about God's Kingdom involving a king canceling a huge debt. Probably a bunch of Jews believed that the Messiah would cancel all debts (year of jubilee and all that) and so there is nothing new here. The surprise twist in this parable is the way the King suddenly changes his mind. One minute he is the generous God-like Messiah King, wiping out impossibly large debts (surely no servant could amass such a debt in reality), the next its business-as-usual and out with the whip and rods. If that wasn't shocking enough, we are then told that God himself will treat us in the exact same way. So whilst the disciples are told to forgive 70x7 times, God apparently operates with the one-strike-and-you're-out principle. Clearly the parable isn't straight forward as most of our devotional readings. To make matters worst, if we take the statement at face value that our heavenly father will treat us in this way, it surely conflicts with other sure statements about the grace of God! So I am still asking myself: what on earth was Jesus getting at? Is our forgiveness ready to be removed upon our first mistake, as per the unforgiving servant? Surely not, if we are to believe any of Paul. I am left wondering if this parable is a coded story about who will be included and excluded from God's Kingdom. It tells a story of a King (representing Jesus) who, as in the year of jubilee, forgives astronomical debts, representing the sins of the world. It shows how God's grace is freely given without any initial requirement, but it also shows that God's grace requires a proper response. As such, the parable perhaps originally functioned as coded warning to the Jews concerning the up-coming wrath of God following their rejection of Jesus and manifest as the destruction of their temple and city. Is was a timely reminder not to cheaply rely on God's grace, but to have the right attitude and humility to others, as appropriate for citizens of God's Kingdom. Ultimately this right attitude would lead to an acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Messiah. If that is right (and I am by no means confident), then to us Christians the parable would read as warning concerning our approach and attitude to God's grace, especially the way we treat others. It stands as a warning that those that continue to live in the way of the world may end up finding themselves outside God's kingdom. As such, it stands in tension along with many other similar statements about the importance of living in the spirit and living in holiness, and against such passages which affirm our safety in the hands of our loving Father. That's my first stab at it... This is one of my favourite parables and I enjoyed listening to the three reflections on the parable. However I did feel that the main point of the parable was pretty much ignored…it seems to me that this parable is not about forgiveness but about unforgiveness. I am guessing that no Jew would be surprised to hear about a story about God’s Kingdom involving a king canceling a huge debt. Probably a bunch of Jews believed that the Messiah would cancel all debts (year of jubilee and all that) and so there is nothing new here. The surprise twist in this parable is the way the King suddenly changes his mind. One minute he is the generous God-like Messiah King, wiping out impossibly large debts (surely no servant could amass such a debt in reality), the next its business-as-usual and out with the whip and rods.

If that wasn’t shocking enough, we are then told that God himself will treat us in the exact same way. So whilst the disciples are told to forgive 70×7 times, God apparently operates with the one-strike-and-you’re-out principle.

Clearly the parable isn’t straight forward as most of our devotional readings.

To make matters worst, if we take the statement at face value that our heavenly father will treat us in this way, it surely conflicts with other sure statements about the grace of God!

So I am still asking myself: what on earth was Jesus getting at? Is our forgiveness ready to be removed upon our first mistake, as per the unforgiving servant? Surely not, if we are to believe any of Paul.

I am left wondering if this parable is a coded story about who will be included and excluded from God’s Kingdom. It tells a story of a King (representing Jesus) who, as in the year of jubilee, forgives astronomical debts, representing the sins of the world. It shows how God’s grace is freely given without any initial requirement, but it also shows that God’s grace requires a proper response. As such, the parable perhaps originally functioned as coded warning to the Jews concerning the up-coming wrath of God following their rejection of Jesus and manifest as the destruction of their temple and city. Is was a timely reminder not to cheaply rely on God’s grace, but to have the right attitude and humility to others, as appropriate for citizens of God’s Kingdom. Ultimately this right attitude would lead to an acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Messiah.

If that is right (and I am by no means confident), then to us Christians the parable would read as warning concerning our approach and attitude to God’s grace, especially the way we treat others. It stands as a warning that those that continue to live in the way of the world may end up finding themselves outside God’s kingdom. As such, it stands in tension along with many other similar statements about the importance of living in the spirit and living in holiness, and against such passages which affirm our safety in the hands of our loving Father.

That’s my first stab at it…

]]> By: Tanya Heasley http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1868 Tanya Heasley Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:51:06 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/08/23/parables-of-the-kingdom-the-unmerciful-servant/#comment-1868 Members of my church performed this story to us a little while ago. When I read it in the bible I really get the learning behind it, but to see it acted out and watch how the different characters act out their emotions, it has a far greater impact on what the message is saying. Forgiveness is one of my strengths because I usually place myself in another persons shoes and try to understand how they are feeling, and I don't like to have bad feelings towards others. I don't always forgive straight away, but I do always forgive, somtimes after God has placed me in jail and tortured me. (I know this when I am unable to allow myself freedom through forgiveness and I torture myself by digesting things over and over in my mind). A very good lesson on forgiving I think, along with patience. Members of my church performed this story to us a little while ago. When I read it in the bible I really get the learning behind it, but to see it acted out and watch how the different characters act out their emotions, it has a far greater impact on what the message is saying.

Forgiveness is one of my strengths because I usually place myself in another persons shoes and try to understand how they are feeling, and I don’t like to have bad feelings towards others.

I don’t always forgive straight away, but I do always forgive, somtimes after God has placed me in jail and tortured me. (I know this when I am unable to allow myself freedom through forgiveness and I torture myself by digesting things over and over in my mind). A very good lesson on forgiving I think, along with patience.

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