What Campolo was getting at was the thought that we could bring the Kingdom by getting in with the political authorities. He isn’t saying we shouldn’t do that, but just that isn’t going to be the way we extend the Kingdom. But to speak with authority is a very different deal… and as Paul says, it comes from sacrifice, from the bottom down, by loving and serving the poor…

Your comment about TV made me really laugh. I’d like to hear you say that in a preach, I’m sure it would shock a bunch of people

But what does it mean to become poor? Does it mean that we deliberately put ourselves into actual material poverty? No! But it surely means that we should be prepared to downgrade our lifestyle needs in order to elevate others (”and they had everything in common”) In our globalised society, we need to share what we have with our Christian brothers/sisters in the developing world, and we need to share everything we have with neds from Possilpark (or wherever). Then folk will know we are Christian because we love one another.

Do we stop our wealthy jobs? No! But we downgrade our lifestyle so we an give more:
1. we chose to live in the poor areas of town because few other Christians do.
2. we forego TV because its mostly shite anyway and we have better things to do like community organising, prayer, and making meals for folk who have no friends and no money.
3. we chose to live at a certain level of income and if we get a pay-rise above this, we just give it all away rather than buying a big house. Or we invest it so we can create a sustainable fund to give even more money away over the long-haul.
4. we make friends with neds rather than stigmatising them and writing them off.
5. we challenge other Christians to get radical in their lifestyle and be at the vanguard of preaching good news to the poor

NB - I am nowhere near this yet, but I want to get there!

NB - our resources are not only our wealth. It is also our time and our love and our warm homes. Herein lies the power of hospitality, and of giving up our skills and leadership for the poorest areas of our city.

We can most effectively help others out of the pit if we get down into it with them. Herein lies real adventure, paradoxically as we embrace other’s suffering.

NB - We need Christian community organisers and rich philanthropists to help support them.

“So what do I mean? To answer this, I want to ask a question about whether or not you view poverty as a sin. I don’t think you do, but I think that in effect many Christians do.”

I don’t view poverty as a sin, but I do view it as a curse, generally speaking. I don’t believe that God wants us to be malnourished, unable to eat healthy meals, drink dirty water, live in overly hot or cool conditions. I don’t believe God wants us to be an adult and have no ability to read, write, speak clearly, etc. I don’t believe God wants us to have mountains of debt, or to be on benefit for generations. I don’t believe God wants us to steal from others. In whatever we are called to do, I believe that God wants us to have more than enough resources to get it done. I don’t believe we are asked to cut corners or cheapskate in order to be faithful. Hopefully that clarifies ?

I would also say that wealth is an integral part of our creation: and it will be “stewarded”, either by Christians or by non Christians. Its up to us to decide if we want to change the balance. I don’t believe that money is part of the world system that Christ conquered; rather, I believe money is a tool that the world system has used via materialism and capitalism (Mammon?) to enslave us all. Poverty to me is just an acute lack of resources, be it material, financial, educational, or whatever. I see this in direct contrast to the world promised to us in Gen 1 and the world God is restoring to us through Christ.

BTW agree with all the stuff you say — I get really excited hearing about the church getting into the darkest of dark places!

As to the barriers, as you rightly say, (apart from poor people themselves) only Christ through his incarnation, suffering and death has experienced what (in this case) the poor have to live with. Surely it is that which gives us and you hope: you can incarnate Christ, who in himself has denounced materialism, taken on poverty, so that we, through his resurrection, can become rich (or “rich”) in him.

I agree that there are limits (because we are not God) as to how far we can incarnate ourselves in any situation. Moving into possilpark, I don’t intend to become a drug addict and go onto benefits. This means that I agree that we shouldn’t be emulating financial sin, or any other sin for that matter, when we incarnate ourselves. Paul didn’t actively participating in orgies so as to become like a Greek.

So what do I mean? To answer this, I want to ask a question about whether or not you view poverty as a sin. I don’t think you do, but I think that in effect many Christians do. Poverty and wealth, however, are merely external circumstantial factors that do not necessarily reflect a sinful life (see Job). But I think that the reality is that most Christians in the West do subscribe subconsciously to the idea that lack of wealth is in itself wrong. Or rather, that they aspire to wealth not so that they can be generous but so that they can sustain a comfortable lifestyle. Hand in hand with consumerism, is a culture that seeks to avoid suffering in any form, and therefore surrounds itself in luxury and safety, and all the goods and privileges that money can buy.

In mission terms, this results in a church which has become predominantly middle class and which abandons the areas of greatest poverty and suffering in our country. Darkest Scotland really is a horrific landscape of people addicted to methadone that wander the streets like zombies, fatherless kids who run rampage without anyone to restrain them, and crack whores being destroyed by drugs from within an pimps and rape from without. And where is the church? Not only does it shun that lifestyle, but it shuns relationship with the people themselves. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

My point is this: the church needs to be incarnating itself to the very best of its ability amongst the poor of the city, because it is only through relationship that God’s Kingdom can come. We cannot ultimately create God’s Kingdom through the government or through institutions or through working in schools or through hospitals or social work. Because the poorest of the poor are under the radar of all these institutions and because when we do mission ONLY through these institutions (as tends to happen just now) we cannot actually form the depth of peer-to-peer relationships that are required. Our ability to relate is not based on choice or on having the same degree of power when we are doctors or teachers or social workers.

Instead, we need to be neighbours and friends by choice, in vulnerability, and in situations where we have no power. The only way to do this is to voluntarily lay aside what power we do have. This, paradoxically, will give us greater power than we would otherwise have, but in a totally different way.

So I agree that Jesus has power, and I agree that this power is awesome, but it is a power that manifests through sacrifice and relationship from the bottom-up, not from the top down.

And herein is the tension: even if I move to a shame and try my best to identify with the poor, I will never be able to fully do that. This shouldn’t stop us incarnating to the best of our ability, but we also shouldn’t try and become something are not (because its impossible). Perhaps we can make poverty as personal as we can by being in direct relationship with people in poverty, but we have to admit that we cannot ever really become poor ourselves. Only Christ could truly be human and divine. We can’t be poor and rich.
Instead, we can become poor by giving away our wealth and living a lifestyle of simplicity and dependency, in community.

But the barriers will always to some extent remain, no matter how long we spend in these communities. This is the frustration I was trying to articulate.

as always I find your words on poverty extremely challenging. I will, however, attempt to pushback a little. You seem be suggesting that in order to reach out to someone you have to become them. I don’t see the logic here. I know Paul said we should be “all things to all people, so that some may be saved”, but I don’t think he ever sinned in the process…

If someone is poor because of financial sin, should I attempt to emulate that? The only thing a poor person wants is to become rich, our friendship will be ephemeral if we become poor to reach out, only to have the person become saved, get a job, get an income, save, invest, tithe, etc, and see themselves lifted out of poverty.

But I don’t think you are saying that, but just trying to get my head round what you are saying…

Also, concerning Edinburgh, the need for Christ and his Kingdom is everywhere. The obvious list of council schemes and homeless aside, we also have

- the prostitutes
- the elderly, especially those too afraid to venture out due to the police being soft on anti-social behaviour (don’t even get me started on this score).
- loads of people who have no real friends, with messed up lives and confide only in drugs, or drink, or sex, to dull the pain. These are ordinary regular people, who wear a mask and pretend all is right to the world.
- countless rich, well-off young people who have no purpose or direction in their lives and spent their time eating and drinking and having a merry time on the road to hell.

Back on the poor issue…

I was chatting to a guy begging on the street the other day in Glasgow. He said he was 17 years old. I asked why he was on the street. Apparently his mum is a nutter and his dad in in jail. I asked why the social work hadn’t provided accommodation. He said that he was classed as DNA — do not accommodate — and therefore had no hope. He begged in order to stay in a “hotel”. Apparently 1/3 of Glasgow’s homeless are classed DNA. But my understanding of being classed DNA is that you have basically acted like a nutter and have been chucked out of a hostel.

So what do we do? I find it so frustrating…its like people can’t save themselves, their own chain of actions leading them into their own hell…as well as the sins of others against them…all I can say is that we need the Power of Jesus on the streets of our cities:

But he said to me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” So then, I will boast most gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may reside in me.

So I want to also pushback on this idea that Jesus had no power, clearly contrary to what scripture would tell us. I would say that Jesus had power, but his power what not of this world, and works different (i.e. non violently ?).

Take, for example, single parents. Being a single parent is a tough job (I’m sure its hard enough when there are two of you). It becomes harder when its compounded by economic depravation, poor housing, geographically deprived area, etc… If you then add into the mix mental health problems and/or substance abuse you’re probably looking at somebody who is not only extremely marginalised, but who might have a way of relating to the world which is very hard for us to relate to.

I guess for me the question is are we as a church or as individuals in a place where we’re able to get alongside people, hear their stories and understand what they’re going through? Until we can answer yes to that question, I’m not sure how effective we would be in efforts to target marginalised or disenfranchised groups.

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts from the conference in Sunderland! I’m very excited by the possibilities that are opening up for you and your ministry (and that of CCE). Can I tentatively answer your question about the most marginalised folk in Edinburgh? I hope this comes across in the right way…but some of the most marginalised folk in Edinburgh are just a new minutes walk away from CCE in Dumbiedykes. I realise that there are other people groups who are also marginalised in Edinburgh, like the homosexual community etc, but Dumbiedykes is also out of the mainstream. (and of course other areas of poverty eg where my Mum stays in Pilton/Muirhouse. Also, I have a question about the use of the term “marginalised” This term can only really be used in the sense I think you are using it when we are speaking from a position of privelege. I guess my question is whether Christians are actually prepared to become marginalised in order to minister to the poor. I think that geographic location is a crucial part of this, but I also wonder about the extent we are willing to give up our privileges etc. I certainly feel challenged by the idea of moving to Possilpark here in Glasgow, but I still wonder if we are really going to experience marginality when we have a good professional income and always the choice to move away. I think its not only a question of “how far are we prepared to go” but also a question of “how far is it possible to go?” To what extent can we ever really incarnate ourselves in the margins. We can move towards it, but ultimately there will also be differences in the particularity of our situations. This should not stop us from doing these risky things, but we also need to remain humble and realise that as creatures we can’t ever really become “the other”, only Christ can do that, and we must humbly ask for his help in doing that.
Having said that, incarnating ourselves as fully as possible in our own towns amongst poverty etc. is absolutely crucial in our witness as Christians, and it will radically alter our perspective when we are living on the margins rather than reaching across to it. Which is why I’m talking a lot at the moment about Making Poverty Personal. Making Poverty History is good, but we also need to be making it personal.

By the way, we’ve applied for a council flat in Possilpark now, we’re just waiting for the application to be processed. Its going to be interesting to see how church might take shape there. I think it will be very messy and very draining…