Once again, I love Tony Campolo. There are no fluffy bunny messages with him. I am glad that I have a reasonable experience of God’s kindness and grace, otherwise I think I could get a bit driven or motivated by guilt being around him too long. But he is challenging the church out of its comfort zone, to love and serve the poor. Proactively and challengingly, he says that our nice worship songs are a noise to God, is we have no concern for the poor. Come on church … GO!
He was talking on Sabbath and Jubilee: how Jesus came to announce a year of Jubilee; how we are to be a Jubilee people. Notes are once again in the “read more” section.
Perhaps the highlight for me of the talk was the distinction he made between power and authority. He thinks the church has made a huge mistake (is he talking of the US or it true of the UK too?) in thinking that we influence through political power … just by getting “born again” Christian in places of political power we will alleviate poverty, injustice and war! How ironic is that?
But Jesus didn’t come in political power, but he did have authority. Authority comes when we love and serve the poor. The world will not listen if we flex our political muscles, but they will listen we faithfully serve the poor. [NB. he isn't saying that Christians shouldn't go into politics...]
It was good stuff. I will try to write a reflection on the whole conference in a few days when I have had a chance to reflect a bit more … but this is the last set of notes. If you have got this far … well done! Just one final comment in closing: I think I have come away with a clear direction as we think about “missional church” … there must be something in there that is serving and enabling the poor. Yes, let’s work with students, or in the business world, or with Mum’s and Toddlers … but lets also find ways of loving and serving the poor in Edinburgh.
And a question that Malcolm Duncan asked me: Who are the most disenfranchised, marginalised and excluded group in Edinburgh?
Tags: Incarnate, Incarnate Conference 2007, Poverty, Tony Campolo, Jubilee, Year of Jubilee
Session 7 - Tony Campolo
The concept of Sabbath has 3 dimensions:
cf. Lev 25
1. Every 7th day - every individual needs time for refreshment and renewal.
2. Every 7 years - time to renew the land. You would divide up your land into sections, and one of those would have a fallow year. The land needs renewing.
[climate is one of the biggest contributors to poverty]
For years the church in the US has been concerned about 2 issues: abortion and homosexuality. But a new generation is coming up that is concerned about many more issues … including the environment.
3. The 50th year - the year of Jubilee. All land was supposed to be restored land to those who originally possessed it - redistribution of wealth. All debts would be cancelled. All prisoners would be set free - the only thing you got put in jail for was debt … everything else you would be put to death.
This is good news for the poor.
Jesus said I haven’t come to abolish the Sabbath, but to fulfill the Sabbath. You Pharisees haven’t kept the Sabbath.
Isa 61 - spirit of the lord on me … proclaim the year of Lord’s favour. The Messiah would come to proclaim the year of Jubilee.
Lk 4 - Jesus, in his hometown - reads Isa 61. In doing so he was claiming to be the Messiah. “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your sight”.
The people were initially amazed. But Jesus pushes on - talking about how the outsiders were actually inside. Jesus was ready to receive people that the religious people weren’t ready to receive!
Suddenly in a few minutes the crowd had turned from delight to being incensed! They drag him to the edge of the cliff … but Jesus walked right through the crowd and walked away.
There are many people that are shut out of the church.
If you have neglected the poor, then our worship is noise to God.
We can support a child. That is good. But it is better to create jobs for the poor.
When there were no hospitals, who created them? The church.
When there were no schools, who created them? The church.
Now the poor don’t have jobs; will the church rise to the task?
TC running a camp for kids from a poor area. Asked the kids to get $50 for the camp. Packed the kids off to camp. The police phoned … there was a line of cars in the area where the kids came from, with all the part stolen … they had done this to find the money to go to camp. TC was depressed; but the police said don’t be depressed. They used to steal cars and strip them, to get enough money to buy drugs. Now they are doing it to go to a Christian camp. Next job was to teach them to earn money rather than stealing for it.
We have got to enable people to escape from poverty with their dignity in tact. Create jobs for people.
Jesus came to bring good news to the poor.
Eph 6:12 - if we are going to be a jubilee people, then we have to deal with principalities and powers. If we are going to eliminate poverty we have got engage the political systems, education systems.
The weapons are not the weapons of the world.
We have made a mistake: if we can just get born again Christians in places of political influence then there won’t be war any more; there won’t be poverty; there won’t be injustice.
“But it is not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit”.
There is difference between power and authority. I have power if I can coerce you, force you. Jesus never used power. How is going to win the world? Comes from authority … but how do we get that? Through sacrificial love and service … not through political power.
eg. Mother Theresa had authority. Where did she get that? On the streets of Calcutta.
Where will the church get authority? When we love and serve the poor. The world will not listen if we come flexing political muscle. But they will listen when we faithfully serve the poor.
When Jesus came, he didn’t come with political power. But he did have authority.
We do need Christians in politics - but the church will get authority when we serve the poor.
Will we be a jubilee people who bring good news to the poor, bring sight to the blind, and declare the year of jubilee?
Hi Rupert,
Thanks for sharing all your thoughts from the conference in Sunderland! I’m very excited by the possibilities that are opening up for you and your ministry (and that of CCE). Can I tentatively answer your question about the most marginalised folk in Edinburgh? I hope this comes across in the right way…but some of the most marginalised folk in Edinburgh are just a new minutes walk away from CCE in Dumbiedykes. I realise that there are other people groups who are also marginalised in Edinburgh, like the homosexual community etc, but Dumbiedykes is also out of the mainstream. (and of course other areas of poverty eg where my Mum stays in Pilton/Muirhouse. Also, I have a question about the use of the term “marginalised” This term can only really be used in the sense I think you are using it when we are speaking from a position of privelege. I guess my question is whether Christians are actually prepared to become marginalised in order to minister to the poor. I think that geographic location is a crucial part of this, but I also wonder about the extent we are willing to give up our privileges etc. I certainly feel challenged by the idea of moving to Possilpark here in Glasgow, but I still wonder if we are really going to experience marginality when we have a good professional income and always the choice to move away. I think its not only a question of “how far are we prepared to go” but also a question of “how far is it possible to go?” To what extent can we ever really incarnate ourselves in the margins. We can move towards it, but ultimately there will also be differences in the particularity of our situations. This should not stop us from doing these risky things, but we also need to remain humble and realise that as creatures we can’t ever really become “the other”, only Christ can do that, and we must humbly ask for his help in doing that.
Having said that, incarnating ourselves as fully as possible in our own towns amongst poverty etc. is absolutely crucial in our witness as Christians, and it will radically alter our perspective when we are living on the margins rather than reaching across to it. Which is why I’m talking a lot at the moment about Making Poverty Personal. Making Poverty History is good, but we also need to be making it personal.
By the way, we’ve applied for a council flat in Possilpark now, we’re just waiting for the application to be processed. Its going to be interesting to see how church might take shape there. I think it will be very messy and very draining…
Thanks Paul … i love the way you are living out the stuff i am blogging about at the moment. Brilliant.
Thanks for your thoughts on the “marginalised” in Edinburgh (i take your point about the term). I am sure geography has gone a part to play, but i notice that most people seem to work with people groups, rather than in geographical areas (eg. homeless, drug addicts etc). I guess there is a bit of both.
The question you ask is crucial i think: are we prepared to be marginalised in order to minister to the poor? Great question; not an easy answer for anyone i guess. Tony campolo mentioned this in one of his stories of being at school and not standing up for Roger. Would i have done anything different? Probably not.
Paul,
as always I find your words on poverty extremely challenging. I will, however, attempt to pushback a little. You seem be suggesting that in order to reach out to someone you have to become them. I don’t see the logic here. I know Paul said we should be “all things to all people, so that some may be saved”, but I don’t think he ever sinned in the process…
If someone is poor because of financial sin, should I attempt to emulate that? The only thing a poor person wants is to become rich, our friendship will be ephemeral if we become poor to reach out, only to have the person become saved, get a job, get an income, save, invest, tithe, etc, and see themselves lifted out of poverty.
But I don’t think you are saying that, but just trying to get my head round what you are saying…
Also, concerning Edinburgh, the need for Christ and his Kingdom is everywhere. The obvious list of council schemes and homeless aside, we also have
- the prostitutes
- the elderly, especially those too afraid to venture out due to the police being soft on anti-social behaviour (don’t even get me started on this score).
- loads of people who have no real friends, with messed up lives and confide only in drugs, or drink, or sex, to dull the pain. These are ordinary regular people, who wear a mask and pretend all is right to the world.
- countless rich, well-off young people who have no purpose or direction in their lives and spent their time eating and drinking and having a merry time on the road to hell.
Back on the poor issue…
I was chatting to a guy begging on the street the other day in Glasgow. He said he was 17 years old. I asked why he was on the street. Apparently his mum is a nutter and his dad in in jail. I asked why the social work hadn’t provided accommodation. He said that he was classed as DNA — do not accommodate — and therefore had no hope. He begged in order to stay in a “hotel”. Apparently 1/3 of Glasgow’s homeless are classed DNA. But my understanding of being classed DNA is that you have basically acted like a nutter and have been chucked out of a hostel.
So what do we do? I find it so frustrating…its like people can’t save themselves, their own chain of actions leading them into their own hell…as well as the sins of others against them…all I can say is that we need the Power of Jesus on the streets of our cities:
But he said to me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” So then, I will boast most gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may reside in me.
So I want to also pushback on this idea that Jesus had no power, clearly contrary to what scripture would tell us. I would say that Jesus had power, but his power what not of this world, and works different (i.e. non violently ?).
Hi Alastair, I think my usual lack of paragraphing has engendered an unwarranted pushback!
I agree that there are limits (because we are not God) as to how far we can incarnate ourselves in any situation. Moving into possilpark, I don’t intend to become a drug addict and go onto benefits. This means that I agree that we shouldn’t be emulating financial sin, or any other sin for that matter, when we incarnate ourselves. Paul didn’t actively participating in orgies so as to become like a Greek.
So what do I mean? To answer this, I want to ask a question about whether or not you view poverty as a sin. I don’t think you do, but I think that in effect many Christians do. Poverty and wealth, however, are merely external circumstantial factors that do not necessarily reflect a sinful life (see Job). But I think that the reality is that most Christians in the West do subscribe subconsciously to the idea that lack of wealth is in itself wrong. Or rather, that they aspire to wealth not so that they can be generous but so that they can sustain a comfortable lifestyle. Hand in hand with consumerism, is a culture that seeks to avoid suffering in any form, and therefore surrounds itself in luxury and safety, and all the goods and privileges that money can buy.
In mission terms, this results in a church which has become predominantly middle class and which abandons the areas of greatest poverty and suffering in our country. Darkest Scotland really is a horrific landscape of people addicted to methadone that wander the streets like zombies, fatherless kids who run rampage without anyone to restrain them, and crack whores being destroyed by drugs from within an pimps and rape from without. And where is the church? Not only does it shun that lifestyle, but it shuns relationship with the people themselves. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
My point is this: the church needs to be incarnating itself to the very best of its ability amongst the poor of the city, because it is only through relationship that God’s Kingdom can come. We cannot ultimately create God’s Kingdom through the government or through institutions or through working in schools or through hospitals or social work. Because the poorest of the poor are under the radar of all these institutions and because when we do mission ONLY through these institutions (as tends to happen just now) we cannot actually form the depth of peer-to-peer relationships that are required. Our ability to relate is not based on choice or on having the same degree of power when we are doctors or teachers or social workers.
Instead, we need to be neighbours and friends by choice, in vulnerability, and in situations where we have no power. The only way to do this is to voluntarily lay aside what power we do have. This, paradoxically, will give us greater power than we would otherwise have, but in a totally different way.
So I agree that Jesus has power, and I agree that this power is awesome, but it is a power that manifests through sacrifice and relationship from the bottom-up, not from the top down.
And herein is the tension: even if I move to a shame and try my best to identify with the poor, I will never be able to fully do that. This shouldn’t stop us incarnating to the best of our ability, but we also shouldn’t try and become something are not (because its impossible). Perhaps we can make poverty as personal as we can by being in direct relationship with people in poverty, but we have to admit that we cannot ever really become poor ourselves. Only Christ could truly be human and divine. We can’t be poor and rich.
Instead, we can become poor by giving away our wealth and living a lifestyle of simplicity and dependency, in community.
But the barriers will always to some extent remain, no matter how long we spend in these communities. This is the frustration I was trying to articulate.
Good to see your reply, Paul.
“So what do I mean? To answer this, I want to ask a question about whether or not you view poverty as a sin. I don’t think you do, but I think that in effect many Christians do.”
I don’t view poverty as a sin, but I do view it as a curse, generally speaking. I don’t believe that God wants us to be malnourished, unable to eat healthy meals, drink dirty water, live in overly hot or cool conditions. I don’t believe God wants us to be an adult and have no ability to read, write, speak clearly, etc. I don’t believe God wants us to have mountains of debt, or to be on benefit for generations. I don’t believe God wants us to steal from others. In whatever we are called to do, I believe that God wants us to have more than enough resources to get it done. I don’t believe we are asked to cut corners or cheapskate in order to be faithful. Hopefully that clarifies ?
I would also say that wealth is an integral part of our creation: and it will be “stewarded”, either by Christians or by non Christians. Its up to us to decide if we want to change the balance. I don’t believe that money is part of the world system that Christ conquered; rather, I believe money is a tool that the world system has used via materialism and capitalism (Mammon?) to enslave us all. Poverty to me is just an acute lack of resources, be it material, financial, educational, or whatever. I see this in direct contrast to the world promised to us in Gen 1 and the world God is restoring to us through Christ.
BTW agree with all the stuff you say — I get really excited hearing about the church getting into the darkest of dark places!
As to the barriers, as you rightly say, (apart from poor people themselves) only Christ through his incarnation, suffering and death has experienced what (in this case) the poor have to live with. Surely it is that which gives us and you hope: you can incarnate Christ, who in himself has denounced materialism, taken on poverty, so that we, through his resurrection, can become rich (or “rich”) in him.
2 Cor 8:9 is a very important verse. I see it as cyclical, though, until the new creation. What I mean by this is that prosperity teaching stops after one cycle. It says, “you are to be wealthy and rich because Christ became poor for your sakes. And then you can keep that wealth, which is a sign of God’s blessing.”
But that ain’t the context. I think that the natural inference we should take from this passage is that we should then go on to emulate Christ, and become poor ourselves so that others can become rich. This is how Paul is trying to show the Corinthians that they have been blessed materially so that they can in turn bless others.
But what does it mean to become poor? Does it mean that we deliberately put ourselves into actual material poverty? No! But it surely means that we should be prepared to downgrade our lifestyle needs in order to elevate others (”and they had everything in common”) In our globalised society, we need to share what we have with our Christian brothers/sisters in the developing world, and we need to share everything we have with neds from Possilpark (or wherever). Then folk will know we are Christian because we love one another.
Do we stop our wealthy jobs? No! But we downgrade our lifestyle so we an give more:
1. we chose to live in the poor areas of town because few other Christians do.
2. we forego TV because its mostly shite anyway and we have better things to do like community organising, prayer, and making meals for folk who have no friends and no money.
3. we chose to live at a certain level of income and if we get a pay-rise above this, we just give it all away rather than buying a big house. Or we invest it so we can create a sustainable fund to give even more money away over the long-haul.
4. we make friends with neds rather than stigmatising them and writing them off.
5. we challenge other Christians to get radical in their lifestyle and be at the vanguard of preaching good news to the poor
NB - I am nowhere near this yet, but I want to get there!
NB - our resources are not only our wealth. It is also our time and our love and our warm homes. Herein lies the power of hospitality, and of giving up our skills and leadership for the poorest areas of our city.
We can most effectively help others out of the pit if we get down into it with them. Herein lies real adventure, paradoxically as we embrace other’s suffering.
NB - We need Christian community organisers and rich philanthropists to help support them.
Thanks Paul. I think I understand what you saying. I agree mostly with what you are saying, but part of me still wants to say “but what about…”. But I will save for an offline conversation!
Your comment about TV made me really laugh. I’d like to hear you say that in a preach, I’m sure it would shock a bunch of people
And I really liked your exegesis of that 2 Cor verse. First non-prosperity exegesis I’ve read which makes sense!
Good conversation guys - it brings some helpful light to the conversation.
Just to clarify on the power / authority comment from Campolo. I think when he used the word power, he was talking about political power … power of this world. For example, Blair or Brown have that power. So do the CEO of large companies, or trade unions or lobbying groups, or people in the media. All have a kind of power due to their position or money etc.
But Jesus didn’t have that kind of power. But he did have authority … in the way he spoke, and then in doing the signs of the Kingdom. i think that is the power spoken about in the verse you quote alastair…
What Campolo was getting at was the thought that we could bring the Kingdom by getting in with the political authorities. He isn’t saying we shouldn’t do that, but just that isn’t going to be the way we extend the Kingdom. But to speak with authority is a very different deal… and as Paul says, it comes from sacrifice, from the bottom down, by loving and serving the poor…
I don’t know how possible it is to look at one group and say they are the most marginalised because within any group there is still variety. What you’re really looking at is the confluence of many different factors.
Take, for example, single parents. Being a single parent is a tough job (I’m sure its hard enough when there are two of you). It becomes harder when its compounded by economic depravation, poor housing, geographically deprived area, etc… If you then add into the mix mental health problems and/or substance abuse you’re probably looking at somebody who is not only extremely marginalised, but who might have a way of relating to the world which is very hard for us to relate to.
I guess for me the question is are we as a church or as individuals in a place where we’re able to get alongside people, hear their stories and understand what they’re going through? Until we can answer yes to that question, I’m not sure how effective we would be in efforts to target marginalised or disenfranchised groups.
Good comment Tony - thanks.
i think you are right that we do need to try to get into the shoes of people, to understand as much as we can. I can’t change who i am, my background, my history. i will never understand completely, but i do think we can try to identify with others…
I sometimes listen to Tony Campolo on the Across the water piece he does on Premier on Sunday evenings, he did a great chat on Calvinism a couple of weeks ago which was great. Anyway, as to the above, as a church, we have to be ready to change so much, language, I feel is so important, empathy, reality, time…….
Interesting comment from a friend recently, noting he knew a church was not growing in a particular area, as at the end of the meeting there were wallets and purses and coats and consoles left lying about.
Just a thought.
Good observation John. We are like that too (although we are growing), and then sometimes something gets nicked…
Church has to change eh?
Hi rupert, really enjoyed reading your blog on the conference. I’ve heard Tony Capmolo and Steve Chalke on a number of occassions and know how inspiring they both are. Josh and I are now attending Holy Trinity Wester Hailes, with Kenny Borthwick. There are a lot of good things going on there and Kenny seems to have a real understanding and heart for the people of Westerhailes who probably come under the definition of ‘marginalised’. I wonder whether there are any connections between CCE and Holy Trinity? The meetings there remind me of what I saw in the Vineyard churches run by Jackie Pullinger: a real identification and gentleness towards the poor as well as an ability to communicate the gospel simply in a way that genuinely instructs people in relation to daily living. Don’t know if that’s helpful to know? Katrina x
p.s I agree with Tony’s comment about single parents being one of the marginalised groups in society!
thanks katrina ..
whenever i have heard kenny b, i have been very impressed with him.
I can’t be bothered with anything recently. I’ve just been sitting around doing nothing. Today was a loss. I just don’t have much to say. Nothing seems worth thinking about.
Americans owe, doesn’t owe Vietnam veterans an apology