Comments on: What is Missional Church? - Part 8

By: rupert

rupert — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:14:06 +0000

Edward Kay Dilworth - i have deleted your comment. if you wish to interact with the discussion that is one thing. leaving unsolicited offers of help (to straighten out my theology) is another, quite unacceptable, thing.

By: Rupert’s Blog » Rivers in Manchester

Rupert’s Blog » Rivers in Manchester — Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:02:37 +0000

[...] I talked once more about the thought that God is going to renew the heavens and earth (not destroy and mentioned the paper by Michael Goheen) … you can read a longer post and comments here. [...]

By: Rupert’s Blog » New Earth or Renewed Earth

Rupert’s Blog » New Earth or Renewed Earth — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:12:12 +0000

[...] morning, on “New Earth or Renewed Earth“. I have blogged on this before, most recently here, but also an older post about “New Earth and Carbon [...]

By: New Earth or Renewed Earth? at Jason Clark

New Earth or Renewed Earth? at Jason Clark — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:03:20 +0000

[...] If you are interested, I have blogged a bit about this and engaged in some discussion about this on a couple of posts on my blog: New Earth and Carbon Emissions and What is missional church? – Part 8 [...]

By: Alastair

Alastair — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:21:27 +0000

Hey Rupert, have you read this: On Earth as in Heaven, by N T Wright ? Seems like (I haven’t read it yet) a similar theme to the one you preached on here.

By: rupert

rupert — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:32:37 +0000

Lincoln - thanks so much! I have wondered if i would ever write a book, but i have always thought i am better speaker than writer, but blogging has really helped me to see i can write too if i put my mind to it…

Sorry about the mass of posts too … there must be an easy way to navigate all around them…

By: rupert

rupert — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:30:14 +0000

Good comment Paul - what a thought about what jesus would come talking about…
i think you are right, but what it then does get me thinking is how do we communicate the kingdom message to a world that doesn’t have the concept of kingdom in the way jesus talked about it.
Would nation be another possibility? Or team?
I like story and culture too …
mmm. But more thinking required!

By: rupert

rupert — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:26:13 +0000

Yes Paul i agree (and sorry it has taken me so long to agree with you!).

One of the images i have in mind as i think about this is the lion and the lamb lying down together. I think that speaks to me of a greater restoration of all creation than just a human spiritual salvation…

By: Lincoln Rozelle

Lincoln Rozelle — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:05:26 +0000

If you’re ever short on a bit of cash you should polish up the past few weeks of posts and turn them into a little book. I’d buy one just for the convenience of reading your posts by turning pages instead of having to click around the blog. You do keep me thinking.

By: What's your point caller?: Everything is meaningless?

What's your point caller?: Everything is meaningless? — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 05:48:20 +0000

[...] it’s important to laugh. So why not read this, or watch this.And once you’ve finished laughing.Read this which will stretch your mind.And let the author know your thoughts.And let me know what you are [...]

By: Paul

Paul — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:14:30 +0000

I think the theme runs through the bible, 2 examokes

- creation, incarnation, recreation - world is made good not perfect, Jesus comes to restore our humanity and reconnect us back to the mission of creation, making us renewed so we can tend and serve the world…

- the ongoing mission/search of God for a people who will bear his image…

By: Paul

Paul — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:10:20 +0000

i think we are always contextualise the gospel for instance when jesus talked about the kingdom of God he was being deliberately provocative - God ceaser vs Ceaser - two kingdoms and all the hopes of liberation that the Jewish people laboured under. Would Jesus talk about a kingdom today - probably not as it just doesn’t have the same resonance, maybe it would be the economy of God, the environment of God, the culture of God, the story of God or something else entirely…

I think one of the possible reasons why we have in our turn narrowed the gospel is due to the collapse of time frames - the world and the universe keeps getting older, our future grows more uncertain, events in the present move at such speed that our sense of time basically collapses - in that way it is much easier to focus on earth now rather than try and comprehend eterniry and heaven…

By: rupert

rupert — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:21:56 +0000

Hi Hamish, thanks for visiting here and leaving a comment. Glad you have enjoyed it.

I think you raise a good point about why we have narrowed the gospel so much. I have been thinking this a little, and i think that part of the reason may well be ease of communication. I have also wondered if it has something to do with the cultural context in which in was fashioned. During the last century, the world was a scary place; world wars particularly at the beginning of the century. In the church was the rise of the liberal stream of theology … in reaction to this the “rescue to heaven” approach (without any thought to social development … that was the liberal’s domain!) was formed.

I think there are so many aspects of the gospel, and what formulated was wrong, and really worked for a long time in a world that wanted to reassurance and a rescue for its current plight. So i guess i wonder if was a contextualised gospel that is less relevant as culture has changed?

What do you or anyone else think?

By: rupert

rupert — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:14:28 +0000

thanks tayna … i really agree that we all have different roles here. I think in part i am wanting to bring some release from guilt for those who feel that they should be telling people about Jesus, but actually feel their gifts lie elsewhere (but not letting them off the hook completely!).

I do want to push back a little on your last paragraph … i think what i am seeing in the Bible is the God’s plan is about mending or renewing all creation, all the earth … that i think is our ultimate aim and motivation…

By: rupert

rupert — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:07:32 +0000

Thanks Alastair … once again you take the conversation deeper and broader. Thanks.

I particularly like and agree with the last paragraph … i think i am beginning to see this spiritual salvation as you put, as an initiation into the redeemed community to bring about this renewal. Without the redeemed community, renewal can’t happen. It isn’t just about good works, but is bringing God’s rule and presence on “earth as it is in heaven”. I think i have just repeated what you said!

By: rupert

rupert — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:03:18 +0000

Duncan … you are right … and that is great provocation to some further thought and reflection. I think the restoration theme is all over the Bible (romans comes to mind), but would be good to look at the difficult passages too. That’s a summer job!

I think too it does have huge implications on the way we live. I have this growing excitement that i am beginning to find a much larger vision of what God is doing, and how i can get involved with Him…

By: rupert

rupert — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:00:21 +0000

Paul - good points. You bring a good balance … maybe for example it is us co-operating with God to bring heaven to earth?

I think you are right … I am trying to correct a very narrow and spiritual gospel … that connects much more with life now. So i am sure i am going a bit over board … but i also feel quite passionate that we don’t just revert to “business as usual”.

I thoroughly agree that recreation and resurrection … we really see that in Jesus after his death and resurrection…

By: Hamish McWilliam

Hamish McWilliam — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:49:18 +0000

Hi Rupert,
My wife and I came on Sunday (the second time now) and we really got a lot out of the message. It is a refreshing look at salvation, and how we percieve it happening in other people’s lives. I think it got simplified somewhere along the way for some reason…to make explanation easier?
And it seems that in the Gospels, Jesus is interested in the whole picture of salvation, not just a simplified version.
But we were both encouraged by your words, so thanks
Hamish

By: tanya heasley

tanya heasley — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:14:45 +0000

Very good insight, something I myself have often thought about but never really expanded on.

To be honest I think there are different missions suited for certain people/s. The bible has shown me many ways of reaching people with the Gospels, some I think I could perform and others I feel I couldn’t do.

I feel comfort in knowing that all things will be made new and that God will walk among us and not just in spirit. I can’t wait for when He ends all sorrow, pain and suffering and knowing that I will eventually be made perfect like Jesus helps me to not dwell too much on my imperfections now, (for I think that can be a weakness worry too much about ourself and it’s a way for the enemy to get in).

To sum it up though, I’m not sure if thinking about where heaven is/will be as that important but rather who will be/get there. That must be a motivation for spreading the Good News

By: Alastair

Alastair — Wed, 30 May 2007 11:03:54 +0000

Hey Rupert, I haven’t heard this preach yet but look forward to listening to the mp3. In the meantime, here are some initial comments on your four points:

1 - like what you say here. You have actually moved into classic charismatic territory, such as Bill Johnson’s classic teaching on the Kingdom. Futher comments

- heaven here is seen as the rule of God, now extending to all creation
- heaven here is seen as the presence of God, ditto
- heaven here seen as the Glory of God, ditto
- heaven here seen as God’s Storehouse: holding what he and his people have prepared to be released into creation

Also, thinking tangentially, I am reminded of that verse in Ephesians that not only Christ but the members of the church are also sitting in heavenly places. So there is a sense that the entire people of God are sitting with Christ, sharing in the rule, presence and glory of God, or something like that.

2 - with you here, but I probably need to re-read that paper again…

3 - sounds good. But I think a city is more than mere community. Its also a cultural nexus, a trading centre, a hub of arts, education, entertainment, etc. In fact, these days people leave a city to find community! I see the city more as a fulfillment of this stuff: “we name the animals, we are fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and dominion over it, care and tend for creation. God has given some of His jobs for us to participate in.” I love that a city comes out of heaven here: its validates that all this cultural stuff is part of our mandate as God-bearers.

4 - sounds good.

The only I would add is that the NT seems to link the “spiritual salvation” very closely with the cosmic salvation. IE the world is not redeemed by good works, but by the process of the image bearers becoming reconciled with God, and in some mysterious way, this is part of the healing of the world. I’m thinking of Romans 8 here (that bit about creation groaning and all that — “Act 6″). I think this is where the liberal church has gone wrong: personal salvation, whilst as you say very narrow and vertical, is the key or door to the rest of this stuff happening. I think!