Comments on: Hell on Earth

By: rupert

rupert — Mon, 28 May 2007 21:01:33 +0000

Good point Tony …

I think you are probably pushing what i was saying a bit further than i would want - I am certainly not saying that all who live alone are selfish, but that a sign of self-centredness (which in my mind is a definition of sin) is the break down of community and therefore increasing single person homes.

I think you bring a great challenge about intentionality to be community which is true of families, married couples, shared flats, or single person households.

Thanks for the comment…

By: Tony

Tony — Mon, 28 May 2007 11:18:11 +0000

OK, some of this might already have been said, but I wanted to challenge you a bit on the single living equals selfishness equation (which is a bit blunter than you actually put it, but what it essentially boils down to).

Given that there is an innate desire in us for human contact, actually living by myself I find that I need to be far more intentional and probably make more of an effort if I want to be with people. Whereas when I lived in a shared flat, and the experience of some people I know who still live in shared flats, it is much easier to take that contact (and by extension the people) for granted and actually be more selfish.

Other than that I agree with you about the challenges, but also the opportunities this presents for building community.

By: rupert

rupert — Sun, 27 May 2007 20:04:31 +0000

Thanks Duncan … I agree we need to do both, and maybe in doing both we will see what will be most successful. Exciting days! It really feels as though God is changing the face of church! Come on!

I also think you are so right about genuineness - I think we have a lot of work to do before people see that, as there is such a stereotype of what a Christian is!

By: Duncan McFadzean

Duncan McFadzean — Sun, 27 May 2007 07:53:16 +0000

I would love to see us as the model community, that the relationships between us are so attractive people actually want to be part of that. We’re a long way from that (can they even see us modelling community yet? let alone what they see us modelling?)

I think we need to be more intentional about how we relate to our community. Where does our community gather - be there, join it. What sort of places does our community gather in - can we replicate this? I.e. where are people relational already - coffee shops, hairdressers, nail bars, taxis……..I guess the point is about being where the people are and making that a GENUINE part of your life (not stalking non-christians in random coffee shops lol) but just getting to know your community. I think it’s easier if we own it and run it and our community meets there, rather than the other way round - but that runs counter to the first point. Hmmm. I think we need to do both. I suspect second is more successful than first, and if second is done well, then first can be the same as second over time.

By: rupert

rupert — Sat, 26 May 2007 11:35:08 +0000

Duncan - thanks for all the info. I was really aware that i was narrowing the reasons down hugely, and was in danger of making a simplistic point.

What i found fascinating was the relatively small increase in number of single person household for people under the age of 35 … but then it really increases. And it isn’t all about older people …
There is clearly a need for more housing - what was interesting (which i hadn’t appreciated) was the current house building doesn’t actually seem to increase the number of houses much, but just to replace those houses no longer habitable!

I think the main point i was wanting to bring out, is exactly as you state towards the end of your comment, was one of loneliness, isolation and lack of community…

It does seem to me that the church has something very different to offer our sociey with our emphasis on community, especially when that is across the generations? How many communities can have students or young people who visit older (housebound) members of that community? I wonder as our society seems to walk towards an increasing disconnection of community, that church will be seen increasingly to have something unique to offer?

What do you think?

By: rupert

rupert — Sat, 26 May 2007 11:24:18 +0000

Hey matthew - do you really want to have a disussion about our different hairstyles? I’ll stick with my hairdresser everytime!

By: rupert

rupert — Sat, 26 May 2007 11:21:08 +0000

Paul - good thoughts. I think that was what i was getting at in the post - we are increasingly living in a culture, where “I” is the centre of everything … couple that with the increasing prosperity we are “enjoying”, then you have a break down of community, relationship, and increasing isolation.

I wonder if the church will increasingly be a prophetic alternative to this, as we really grapple with community (and maybe community living)? What do you think?

By: rupert

rupert — Sat, 26 May 2007 11:12:52 +0000

Thanks Alastair - i love the book too … i found the vision of heaven and hell gripping.
I probably wasn’t very clear on the hairdresser bit…
She was talking about how hard life is for many people (i guess probably nonChristians), so full of pain and hardship.
I think it was also her way of saying that she doesn’t really see much truth or value in “life after death”, when life is so hard in the here and now…

Of course i would want to keep the aspect of eternal life after death, but i also think she has a point!

By: Duncan McFadzean

Duncan McFadzean — Sat, 26 May 2007 08:41:24 +0000

Rupert, I’m encouraged to hear how this started, as I’m increasingly convinced that we should start running hairdressing businesses - people talk in there! Particularly the haridressers for females.

I’ve spent a bit of time looking at the issue you raise, through various roles at work over the years, and there are multiple reasons for the rise in singe households, not all of them bad:
- rising numbers of divorce
- people getting married later
- rise in the number of students and postgrads
- increase in people from overseas coming to work in the UK
- less people getting married
- people moving out of home from ther parents earlier than they used to (part of which is the rise in university students)

As part of the rise in single households, as well as a trend globally (which is also being seen across the UK including in Scotland) towards urban living in cities (Tim Keller has some interesting pieces on church & city) , the Government decided that at least 50% of new build units (and we only build c.180k units a year) had to be flats rather than houses. This was to get away from builders focusing on the big detached house market (nice and profitable) which would not have provided the right sort of housing. However, what this has led to is significant over-capacity in many cities of the 1-2 bed apartment (e.g. Leith) and a lack of affordable (in a broad sense) family housing. That policy I believe has now been abandoned and so we should see more housing.

If you look into the housing problem, remember these stats. There are c.22m households in the UK. There are around 2m houses bought and sold each year. Around 200,000 new builds, meaning each existing house has to last for 110 years unless you want more homeless people (and there are around 50,000 homeless people in Scotland already apparently).

So what can be done? Fundamentally we have to build more houses (you can’t force people to stay with people they don’t want to live with, albeit due to house prices that is happening de facto). That means changing planning laws, and taking on local political attitudes of nimbyism. Where I live there will be c.1000 new units of accomodation built not too far away. Good for house prices? No. The right thing to do? Yes.

I would say that there are a few challenges to the church in this:
- is it right to have loads of “equity” tied up in you house that you’ve made through gains or can it be used for a good purpose?
- Do you live in a house that’s too big for you and what you use it for?
- How can we, as the church, work to build community arund where we live? The bigger issue is not lack of housing but actually loneliness as people live on their own and have no community?
- How much do we think about where we live as an intentional decision to impact on a community and how much is it driven by what we want from that community (schools, shops, parks, restaurants etc) rather than what we can give?

Good post, nice and thought provoking. Thanks

By: Matthew

Matthew — Fri, 25 May 2007 17:12:04 +0000

Real men go to the barbers, not the hairdressers. And they certainly don’t have one they call their “own”

By: Paul

Paul — Fri, 25 May 2007 13:32:42 +0000

poignant thoughts rupert, thank you for sharing them. it is a real challenge people being able to live with each other, especially when they have the economic means not too… Doing what I want, when I want, how I want, sounds very attractive and a reflection i think that one of the driving influences is that my life is mine to live as i please without anyone esle getting in the way, telling me what to do or limiting my freedom…

the saddest thing for me is that often this dream of escape means I miss out on life right now - dreaming of a me centric heaven…

By: Alastair

Alastair — Fri, 25 May 2007 08:35:07 +0000

Very interesting. Thanks, Rupert.

I love Lewis’s “Great Divorce” — fantastic book!

One thing — I wasn’t sure what your hairdresser was referring to when she said “living hell” — was she talking about her job, the life of her (presumably nonChristian) friends, or the way she viewed Christians — some sort of people in a living hell? I couldn’t really figure it out!