For the last few years, we have been embarking on a voyage of discovery of the kind of church God is calling us to be in the next phase of our life.
There has been much discussion and prayer in the community to discern the heart and mind of God. On Saturday we held a day together for the church, to talk further about how we believe God to be leading us, to talk together, and pray and break bread at the end of the day.
As a leadership team, we were sharing about the direction we sense God is leading us. This isn’t a narrow “vision” … but a broad direction that allows individuals to bring their passions and contributions to further our movement. As we have speaking on over the last few sundays (as well as over the last few years) we are wanting to become an missional community, while also not neglecting the “equipping of the saints”.
It seems to me that God is changing the face of Church in the UK (and perhaps wider?). There is a move of the Spirit to bring reformation. What we have been isn’t wrong, but it is changing. And that is what we, along with others, are grappling with: “What does church look like in the 21st century?”.
From my perspective it seemed a good day together. It is always pretty difficult to judge, but there seemed a great sense of community; a coming together in worship and prayer; an excitement about the possibilities for the future (even if we are not sure what it is going to look like). I felt that we communicated well (I was sharing an adapted version of Guidance in Community - Part 4), there was some good discussion and feedback in a plenary session. All is all, it felt as though it was a significant day in our story.
I suspect we need to keep talking about what it could look like, what is is we are trying to do and why. This is only the beginning …
If you were there, I would love to hear your experiences and impressions? What did you come away with? What did you sense God saying to you?
And if you are in a different church, I would love to hear what journey you are on, in becoming the kind of church God is calling you to?
Tags: Emerging Church, Missional Church, Edinburgh, Community Church Edinburgh, Vision, Church, Community, 21st Century Church
I thought the day was really good and really worthwhile. Glad we did it, glad it emerged to be what it was, for the whole church, and glad we ended up where we did.
Personally even though I struggled with the discussion groups, so random, no context, little facilitation etc, etc… I found that God really spoke to me about the fact that I need to focus more on him and what he is doing in me and my life, and the lives that I touch through him.
And when I do that other things – like where are we going with church, will fit into place…
I’m trying to figure out what my wife and I actually missed…any “news” or new consensus as such? What was actually discussed, etc? Cheers!
I think we have always been stronger on the spiritual side; so now we are wanting to incarnate the good news in our communities. But that is going to take some time to move fully into that.
So we trying to explain the direction we are going (as above), talk together about that, pray and be together.
Hello people,
Yeh, i felt the day was good too, I had looked forward to it for a while. It was good to gather as a community and I felt a sense of togetherness.
One of the questions I am thinking about at the moment is should I / the church be seeking God specifically for growth in the supernatural gifts and his presence? Does everyone sense his presence or is it made up? Should we be seeking it? Are we all called to walk in the supernatural gifts? If so, I would like to! At the same time recognising that the fruits of the spirit (love, joy, peace etc) and character are more important.
I know we need to give to people practically, emotionally, financially and bless the city that way, what I call the ’social work’ type stuff, but what about the ’spiritual’ stuff? eg healings, prophecy miracles. Should we as a church be seeking God specifically for these gifts aswell? Is that part of the direction we are moving?
I am genuinely asking these questions because i Know i dont have all the answers and would love to know what my brothers and sisters think.
Onwards and Upwards,
and thanks for organising the day,
james
ps. its good to have somewhere to express my views and ask my questions.
Good question James! Personally I think that we have in our society separated the “social stuff” from the “spiritual stuff” and have created a somewhat artificial barrier. I also recall countless leaders reminding folk that the spiritual gifts are not intended for “holy huddles”, “bless me clubs”, etc. I would like to see more of the Wimber stuff like Power Evangelism and Power Healing….using the gifts “out there”.
As to the presence of God, I suspect that often we all feel him in different ways. I remember Rupert talking about silence (is that right?), personally I have found God both in the silence and in the noise! (Not traffic noise! But loud rockin worship
).
My own personal theory about miracles and such is that it does depend on the level and intensity of prayer of the entire body, and also to what extent a body is “on track” . Certainly when you look at where this stuff is happening, you see lots of faith and lots of people coming to faith. I’ll be honest, my own faith-level for miracles and healings is quite low, and I just don’t know how to boost it up!
James - on healing / miracles etc. i agree with Alastiar. I think we want to see both social action and signs & wonders, but perhaps we have under emphasised the social action over the last few years. So I think God seems to be emphasising this aspect at the moment, but we need not lose sight of the signs & wonders.
I wouldn’t want to see either of these as being more or less spiritual though … I think that has been part of the problem: We see one as more important than the other.
Mother Theresa seems a good example here. She got he hands dirty, served and loved. And God seemingly did some amazing stuff through her (signs & miracles).
I am all for the sign / miracles etc. But lets not hide ourselves away, praying for “God to come”, and then expecting people to come to us. Lets get involved with people, and also expect God to be doing things as we do that.
THe only other thing i would say is that these sings / miracles / prophecy might not look how we expect. I have found that, at the moment, i flow in the “prophetic” far more when i am counselling someone, than any other time. But it isn’t “God has shown me a picture” etc. It is a sense i have, or a gut feeling, or a question i ask that seems a bit of track, but brings real insight. That is so cool, but so different from how i have flowed in this gift previously. And anyone looking on probably wouldn’t realise what was happening.
Fristly and most importantly I would like to ask how you change the colour of your font? I want to stand out a bit more! and thanks for commenting………………
I definitely dont think we should be hiding ourselves away but I do want ‘ God to come’ , wether that’s through the laying on of hands or his presence coming down on people of his own accord! We have all heard lots of stories of God’s presence hitting a meeting, both today and throughout church history, where people are healed physically and emotionally, people are saved, people experience joy, it has rained indoors!, apparantley Oil and gold dust has appeared on people! people speking in tongues etc………………. Is it right to desire and seek this level of his presence? Part of my heart does. Maybe Im just a thrill seeker!
I guess I just wonder, if we go and do all the social action stuff and dont seek God specifically for the supernatural maybe it will never happen? I heard one pastor calling it ‘contending for the ministry of Jesus’ ! I do also recognise that the love God gives Christians for people is supernatural too, as are all the fruits. I also understand that the gifts operating may not look like what we expect.
Any comments most welcome,
james
ps this is coming from someone doing a social action type course working with children in a social work centre, so I am all up for getting my hands dirty!
Ahh Jamesy … to the most important question first: its bloggers rights!!!! Actually it is a bit of fancy HTML code, that changes font colour, and add a picture. But i think i only can do it as its MY blog!!
I think all those things you mention are great … and certainly part of what might open someone up to the good news.
Yes lets ask God to do these things; but lets go and do too. I suspect we may find doing stuff happen as we go…
I would love to one day be using the gift of prophecy / word of knowledge/ power of the holy spirit on the streets one day too. Bit scary though hey?! Maybe we should aim for it and ask God how to get there? (Im thinking about the story of Jesus with the women at the well as an example).
The presence for me………………. There have definitely been times where I have ‘felt’ God very strongly on the inside, usually associated with some kind of emotional response eg tears or a very deep sense of peace and being loved. Should we be seeking this ‘presence’ as a priority and how do we do that?
Re miracles……………….. I think the way we boost our faith is by spending as much time as possible with the Lord: prayer, worship, bible study. I may be wrong! Oh and by asking him if we can move in these things! If he says ‘yes’, we need to ask how, if he says ‘no’ then we can forget about it!! (ps ive never healed anyone, so maybe ask someone else!)
God bless
James, thanks for replying to my comment on your comment
One thing I want to respond to — I am not sure that simply doing loads of bible study, worship and prayer increases my own faith. Certainly I do a lot of the above and my faith and boldness aren’t always sky high…Rather, I think that the more we get out of comfort zones and start relying on God, the more our faith grows. My problem is that I spend too long in the “comfort zone” … when we move ourselves onto the “front line” of ministry/life, we have to rely on God’s empowerment and his faithfulness, that’s when I think people grow. Certainly its true for me. I think a lot of us struggle with the middle-class problem that life is pretty darn easy, to be honest. Material comforts and (for some us!) jobs which don’t require lots of intercession to succeed in. Basically, I think we should look at Peter’s example of getting out of the boat: start moving towards/jumping into contexts and situations where we need rely on God coming through! Do you know what I mean?
Guys - good stuff. Alastair - i agree about doing, being out of our comfort zone etc. … i think that is where our faith will grow.
I think in our middle class lives, we have to found other ways of being challenged and out of our comfort zone. For in our world it is food and shelter … for others it maybe other things.
I one thing i would add: i think we have made a lot of these things far too “supernatural” … a bit wierd, for the elite, something far off or unattainable. But actually they are lot more normal that than i think. There are lots of people, from more “traditional” backgrounds who pray for people when they are sick or who prophesy, but just wouldn’t call it that. They quietly do it, don’t claim too much, act of thier hunches and instincts and find God is actually in those gut feelings. I think we could learn a lot from the way they do it, that isn’t hyped or spectacular … but there again, maybe it doesn’t meet our need for the BUZZ?!
this blogg stuff is fun hey!!
I think I have run out of things to say…………………….
and I have a huge project to write…………………
So, god bless me, god bless you, god bless CCE and god bless edinburgh.
Oh.. and may the Lord make the ’supernatural’ ‘natural’.
onwards and upwards,
j
hi alastair, thanks for commenting on my comment of your comment on my comment……………i think thats what I mean!
Think you’re right, I think our faith only grows when we step out, it can and will be damn exciting!
A while ago now, I felt God saying ‘ you will never know if you have the anointing untill you step out ‘ . I dont want to die never knowing! and I would rather say to God in heaven, I stepped out and sunk (if that’s what happens), than never even stepped out. Can I get an Amen!!…………………
anyway, got a huge project to write………………….
peace
look forward to you getting out of the boat James
ok,Impressions: I think a sense of togetherness and community was achieved just by being there. The process was more important than the conclusions. There was a strong sense of purpose and excitement, however the path was not that clear. Who cares? I enjoyed the discussions but didn’t come away with “missional route clarity”. I am not that sure that we need a clear path anyway, just a clear vision. Any entrepreneurs will tell you that you have to have a goal and a vision but the route to success is often not clear and different to what was expected.
“What was God Saying”: It’s a recurring theme. Get right with me and the rest will come. B
Brian - thanks so much for the comment. I think that is so right. We are trying to set the direction of travel for us as a church, and then we see how we all decide to move in that direction. THere are no set or concrete ways of moving and in fact i think the journey is AS IMPORTANT as the destination.
Let’s get with God …
I agree, the community aspect was great, meeting people I hadn’t spoken to before etc. I think one of the most helpful things for me was just hearing about what people are already doing. It would be great to have regular updates/testimony/info regarding work/projects people have going on in order to support them, get on board or just be inspired.
I also agree with James, I’d like to see/hear how people feel about God’s role in all of this, and the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Whether that be signs and wonders, as in Mark 6 when Jesus sends out the twelve apostles or just a sense of the peace of God in what they’re doing. Obviously everyone has a unique relationship with God, but I think that it’s important to recognise corporately that He should be the source of everything we do, and that it should be done in His power for His glory. Naive? Too idealistic? Any thoughts?
Flic - thanks for commenting. I hope this won’t be the first and last??!?!?
Thanks for the feedback on stories … we will continue to try to get them air space. It is such a good way of communicating what we are about.
I also really agree with you comment about the Holy Spirit in all we do. I think you are right about peace as well as signs / wonder / miracles. If we are serve and bless our communities, we need to be there as ambassasdors of Jesus. So i think the fruit of the spirit that James talked about is so important. It is no good if we are impatient, irritable, angry, unforgiving people as we serve others. We are representing God well at all. So we definately need Him to be present and the energy behind all we do.
We will probably always fall short of that, but lets aspire for it.
Some very great and interesting comments from everyone here.
I notice that some Christians (both strangers and friends), tend be thinking and feeling the same thing at about the same time as each other. Could that be evidance that the gift of the Holy Spirit is working in us?
I have had a similer converstion about church today. I feel we should adapt ourselves to church, not expect church to adapt to us. It seems to me that church (the body of Christ) takes a battering from some congregational members. There always seems to be something not quite right for some people in a church, but no church is perfect because its members are not perfect.
I love my church and sure I have my bad moments and think that the service, support, and attitude could be better, but I ask God to help me to trust in my leaders. Of course some churches run things differently than others, but aren’t we are all different with different interests? For instance, I, unlike Rupert, tend to feel God’s presence when I’m on a beach listening to the crashing waves or when I’m painting, and like Alastir, when I’m worshipping to rock music.
Hey Tanya, thanks for the comment. I think you are right there does seem something that is happening in a lot of churches … God does seem to changing his church …
Gosh so this is the Blogsphere, rather interesting, not like zero gravity here but anyway….
I rather enjoyed to Vision Day in many aspects,
I enjoyed spending most of the day in Church in Worship, it made me miss the days when I would and could spend all of the day in the presence of God, seeking God, finding God and praying, wouldn’t mind going for Vigil now.
I enjoyed the Worship, prophecy, being in the presence of God.
Vision, Ideas, Discussions among ourselves and direction (esp pleased we didn’t discard our 7 values we discovered a few years back but instead built on it on the day) ,
At the Vision Day I got a clearer and more pratical perspective of what it means to be missional, initially not sold on the idea of ditching traditional values, but we must face it, the Gap between the World is widening daily.
In a way I’ve always believed in being missional but without having a word for it. I’ve had the belief that finding God and becoming a Christian is not a big bang event, but a process and journey and it helps to have a Christian friend, mentor or someone/ people there for new beleiver or person seeking God. A Christian relationship there to support in the “process”.
I’ve always been uncomfortable with the evanlegical approach of aiming for large “numbers” only of people you’ve saved or converted in a day or week, for if these people relapse in a week or two or lose their way after the big bang, without anybody there to help guide or instruct, then there’s no use in counting. We can’t just aim for the Big Bang, then move to the next soul, the Big Bang then move to the next soul, the Big Bang th…. .
First make friends and build relationships and bridges, in so doing you build an atmosphere of trust where your friend can better understand the Message without being misunderstood or clouded by myth. Making friends first, sharing after. In leading friends to Christ we provide them with that Christian relationship I was talking about that is always there to support, guide, encourage and apprentice during the “process”.
I believe the Missional approach embodies this thinking. We can indeed make such a difference to a hurting World by living out the Word of God and God principles and the World seeing a tasting that the fruit is good. There are treasures to be found in His Word, in living it we should not be afraid to aim for high places in order to change community and society. I put to you that William Wilberforce would have had much more of a struggle abolishing slavery if he wasn’t an MP at Westminster.
We cannot limit our thinking or God.
Lets continue on this Missional path in the 21st Century and transform Society and as we are doing so leading God’s creation back to Him through Christ.
“You are the Light of World”.
Yes yes yes. Lotenna … excellent stuff. That is exactly what we are talking about. Of course, in being “missional” we do want to bring people to JEsus, for them to become Christians, or followers of Him.
But there is so much more we have to offer, in bring health, transformation, life, freedom to our society. And we must never do these things WITH THE AIM of converting people. That is decietful and wrong.
As i read you comment, i kept on saying “yes” … it is great when you hear someone else saying what you are trying to say. Thanks.
Yeah! I’m glad we connect so well on this.
You’re right, I think it is important not to use the blessing we give out to peoople as a cover for trying to convert them, we then send out the wrong message of a hidden agenda and people murmuring “Well they are really all doing all this in order to convert you and stuff, in this selffish world there’s always a hidden motive”
We have to avoid this because it is simply not true. God Loves us unconditionaly he didn’t charge for the cross, we must not lose sight of this as we go out and are being Missional.
People will respond to Christ not for our sake but for the His Sake and the differnece are relationship with Him makes.
It’s exciting and I look forward to the road ahead to making in reality through Christ in me, Christ in us.
#Christ in Me,
the hope of Glory,
You are everything,
be my everything#
Yes Lotenna … you have expressed that so well. Thanks.
I just wanted to comment on how God wants to change the church, and it is even more visible here that relevance. This is a post christian society and we have to learn to point people towards a God they do not know, have never known and do not feel they need, while on top of this we have to be so ready to open up every part of the church without judging, and it is amazing how difficult this is for christians to do.
God bless
Yes John. You are so right.
I think the thing about not judging is so important, but such a challenge. How do we open up the church to people who initially live very different livestyles to us? how can we do that with judging or demanding they change to fit in? how can we live with the mess of broken lives and people who may never look like a good christian?
Great stuff - thanks for commenting.
I found the vision day extremely valuable; one because it was an opportunity to gain more insight into the vision that ias emerging for CCE but secondly, it enabled me to share my thoughts and hear those of others.
God clearly spoke to me that afternoon about him planting his seeds for his kingdom purposes! That got me excited! I want to see faith rise as we move the boundaries of our territory, wider and wider and wider! Our God is ready to be let out of the box!
Thanks for all your comments. Firstly James and Alistair…. I also long, crave and am desperate for more of God and his spirit! Often the reason God pours out his love in this way is to transform and equip in only the way that God himself can. It is in these moments that you are drawn to the Fathers heart and IT CHANGES YOU! His love at these moments takes all that hinders us from taking hold of all that he has appointed us to do and trades them in for more of Jesus. So we are therefore more able to do that which he has called us to do.. that being ‘missional people’. He fills us up to send us out. We like the disciples need the Holy Spirit to transform us constantly so we can walk in our mission field as christs ambassadors!
I believe that Signs and wonders are gifts to Gods children and they all point back to Jesus! I also want to comment that as we move out into the place around us our ultimate goal should be the spreading of the gospel. Wherever you see the spread of the gospel you see ’supernatural’ signs and wonders following…. that is the fruit of the good news. Look at the movements and “revivals” in Korea, God is showing up big time through the signs and wonders there but this came after repentance, intercession and salvation!
I long to see these wonders released as god transforms lives! As a nurse who works with drug users and HIV patients in Edinburgh I long to walk into my ward one day and see the place empty as they will all be set free!
Well one more thing and I will be quiet..! I think that this scripture is key to what we are aiming for???
I was reading Ephesians 4 vs 11.
“It was he that gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists abd some to be pastors and teachers to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and knowledge of the son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in thier decietful scheming,
Instead speaking the truth in love we will in all things GROW UP IN HIM who is the head that is Christ. From him the whole body joined together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.”
Over and out!
Anna Thornton
good to see you on here Anna, nice comment!
james
Anna - good to have you commenting here. I thoroughly endorse what Alastair has said … i hope you comment again, and please don’t be quiet!
Thanks for the feedback on the day … i am glad the day was good for you and sounds great that God spoke so clearly to you.
I don’t really have more to add, but i think James and you are bringing an important aspect of being missional … we mustn’t lose sight of needing the HS … it is God breaking into people’s lives that does bring change.
I think one of the things that we need to grapple with is “what is the gospel?” that we are to witness to? I have been exploring some of these issues in a previous posts. I think it is about the Kingdom, and is about bringing peace, healing, restoration, wholeness, forgiveness etc.
I hope you come back and comment again!
Great Comment Anna, I join in the chorus of voices that say it better not be your last!
I agree with Rupert that what you, James and Alastair are commenting about is an important part of to increasing the richness of being ‘missional’, there is beauty in “Unity and Diversity” (Ephesians 4 speaks into this).
I liked when you to talk about recieving more of God The Spirit and The Supernatural not for the sake of ‘experientialism’ but to equip His people for His purpose, drive away our fear and inhibition and transform us more to Christ’ Image.
(Don’t get me wrong I love experiencing and moving in God’s presence, but when the lights are switched off we can’t stop there and lose momentum, we must take it beyond the boundaries, beyond the four rivers.
There’s a chapter in the Alpha Course titled “How Can I be sure of my faith” question posed to those that may lack conviction or start wondering about the truth in other religions, I say Let The Holy Spirit, His Movement, the Supernatural, Signs and Wonder quicken anybody’s faith outside the four rivers.
People, we have no idea on what you are sitting, sit no more for this is like putting a lid over a lamp at night, Get up and Go!
Let us remember that the revivals of the past where always preceded by long periods of prayer by the people of God in unity, it won’t come one pleasant morning like manna from heaven as wake up from a lovely restful sleep. We must get up and chase it! As one people, one body in Unity through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Good stuff Lotenna. Totally agree. The other thing that has often been present in revivals, but has not been so recognised, is “social action” or having a mind on the poor. Christian involved in society, in arts, politics, education, social concern, science. I think we are looking for so much more than people becoming Christians (as fantastic as that is) but the transformation of our society.
Now that is a vision i get excited about!
Anna - hope that you meant “over” rather than “over and out”, as I hope you stay online and join the blogging conversation! Its great to see you comment. I read what you said with interest…will need to dwell on that Eph verse a little more…
Hi. Sorry if this repeats anything already said and also must admit I may not be exactly fully qualified to comment on Vision and Community Day as I disappeared after lunch- revision was weighing rather heavily on the old shoulders.
I had no idea what to expect of the day as it was presented quite vaguely but really enjoyed parts of it.
-The community social aspect of it was great, just getting to know different folk more.
-The small group discussion was definitely the highlight for me. It was really helpful to hear other people’s views on the direction CCE is heading in and it did help me get more of the vision and more of the passion.
-It was also really helpful to know I wasn’t alone in my apprehension I guess. I am all for blessing people, but I was just concerned over how this-worldly ONLY it was going to look…I was almost worried that it was going to become so I would be frowned on for saying the word Jesus!? It was really helpful to see that other people didn’t view the changed as negating any of the gospel which is also about belief in Christ Jesus, and they were not planning to be covert about their Christian identity. I am basically not convinced that my blessing a person will necessarily look any different to an atheist or Muslim blessing them. Offering free ESL tells people we’re nice, not that Jesus died to set them free, at least at first though I know it can be really important to opening up channels etc. I think there are many dimensions we can bless people in- material aspects, emotional ones etc, and overtly spiritual ones, which speak to their eternal lives as well as their this-worldly ones. Telling people about God’s loving sacrifice as well as enacting it are Biblical and essential. Just think how much we were all celebrating the hope and transformation available in christ this morning! I wouldn’t want to hold that back from a person! I think it’s really key to try and gauge where people are at and try to avoid a one size fits all approach. People are designed to need truth and hope as well as healing, and I was really anxious that we didn’t rule out the option of telling people the upfront gospel though not as the automatic or first action. Though I must reiterate, I am all for just blessing people with no other intention than to bless.
-Also felt it was important that the body was not totally neglected either, which I know is not the intention. eg “Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.” Gal 6:10.
-Very quickly, I also thought there was possibly a bit too much listening at first (didn’t find the first talk really very vital at all, not meaning to be too harsh) and I thought the interactional stuff was what was most valuable.
Wicked, thanks so much for this opportunity to feed back and for reading! Hannah
Hi hannah,
thanks so much for the comment, and for coming on the day when you had exams. Great stuff.
I am glad you enjoyed the day - meeting people and hearing more about the direction we are travelling in…
I think you make a good point that clarifies what we are talking about when we are thinking about “blessing”. I think we need to move away from only serving people, in order to get them saved. That for me doesn’t reflect the unconditional love of God. But we do need to be able to talk about Jesus; the values we hold as Christians; what motivates us to serve and love people; to tell our story of being followers of Jesus. So i think we can be upfront about those things, but not to impose or put something on people, but as part of sharing our lives together.
Of course, being connected to Jesus is the best thing … i guess what i am grappling with is how best to be good news to the people we live among and serve.
I agree with this thought that we shouldn’t “bless” folks with the ulterior motive of “getting them saved”. But I do think we need to hold in tension the “ulterior hope” that we want them to come to faith in Jesus. I do wrestle a little with this…is there a tipping point where it is better to offer Christ than any material blessing? Do people in abject poverty need a roof over their head and clean water before hearing spiel about Jesus? Kinda seems like it, but…
I think we need to be careful with this route, as it seems we are subscribing to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. I can’t remember where, but I heard a good critique of this, and think we need to proceed with caution. If not, we could tend to offer Christ last, after every other physchological, emotional, mental, social, domestic and material need has been met. This must surely be held in tension with the idea that the most fundamental need of all is reconciliation with the one true God through the saviour of the world, Jesus Christ.
Alastair - great point. I wrestle with it too. I don’t like the thought of imposing something on people, or not being honest about our motivation. Hence my banging on about not serving or blessing people with ulterior motives. BUT neither do i think we should be quiet about Jesus. Following Jesus and being connected to Him is the best. What a conundrum?!
I wonder if part of the problem is that we see things so individually. If the good news is really about restoration of the Kingdom, that means the transformation of our society. So we don’t just want people to become Christians, but we also want to see the environment cared for, justice, absence of poverty, good education for all, crime reduced, health and healing for an many as possible etc. Both are important and need to be held in tension.
Perhaps if we both equally important, then we don’t try to force one about the other, and can hold them in tension??
Hi there!!
Really interesting to read people’s comments about the vision day and stuff…just a quick note as I’m supposed to be revising…!!
Firstly, I found the day extremely helpful - I think communication is key, and valued so much the opportunity we were given in discussion groups to voice our passions and also concerns. Thank you! It really felt as though we were all individual parts who made up the Body. I think it’s so important that every member of the church feels a sense of role, that they have a part to play. I guess that’s how you attain true unity.
Secondly, I had the same thoughts as Hannah about the potential danger of us just being ‘nice people’ and also of perhaps becoming dissillusioned as we try and meet the infinite needs of society…it seems as though we could be just simply replicating what local authorities etc already provide? I certainly agree with the other comments that serving and sharing faith need to be held in tension, but surely although physical needs are essential and definately definately shouldn’t be ignored, surely the condition of the soul is ultimately the greatest need? Our lives on earth are temporary…our faith concerns the whole of eternity!
We can say we don’t want to serve with an agenda of conversion, but is it possible to love the person whom we are serving yet not feel a heavy burden to share with them the hope that we have?? Of course we need to be sensitive, and of course we shouldn’t serve only the people who seem to be open, but I would feel (perhaps wrongly?) uneasy if the gospel wasn’t what was primarly driving us, supporting us and sustaining us.
I think there needs to be transparency.
It’s such a difficult issue and I guess discussions can go on and on forever, but I need to get back to work!! haha!! There’s lots of things I need to think about some more (as you can tell from above!!), but those are my intitial thoughts anyway…
Liz
Liz, I agree with what you are saying! The day a church becomes merely a community of nice people is the day is has utterly failed at its mission and ceases to become a church! You might as well join the Natural Law Party or something at that point
. I think you hit the nail on the head about the fact that its the gospel that should be driving us. Certainly when I read the New Testament, its the gospel and the Lordship of Jesus which is driving Paul, the Apostles and others to travel the countryside up and down. They seem driven by an urgency and immediacy, and seem compelled to spread the message about Jesus. Acts of charity seem to flow from this…
Perhaps a bit tongue and cheek, but do some folks believe Paul messed up, and instead of going to Athens and preaching, he should have simply pitched up at the local soup kitchen? Did the early Apostles focus too much on the Message? I guess part of the problem is that we no longer expect signs and wonders to accompany our message. The Apostles did, and so rather than worrying about social services and counselling they just healed people without further ado! Tensions, tensions, so many tensions…
Hi Alastair … totally agree about being nice. But wanted to push back on the soup kitchen …
I know you were being a bit tongue in cheek, but there seems so much in the bible about justice. Jesus speak so much about caring for poor, the broken. He didn’t just see it as preaching the message…
I personally believe that Acts isn’t a model for us today, but is the STORY of the early church. It is descriptive not prescriptive. Therefore it describes what happened when teh church first started and how it moved and progressed. But it doesn’t describe how we are to be chruch now. We can learn, but it isn’t a model, IMHO.
I was being a bit cheeky there, but my point is that, it seems that the New Testament model is to go into an area that hasn’t heard the good news, preach it, form a church, and then have that church do good works. IE the works/social action/charity flows from the establishment of the community of God’s people. Another way to look at it would be to see the “Shalom” flowing from the Body of Christ.
Do we see other NT models for justice in action, apart from the signs and wonders?
On descriptive vs prescriptive, I actually think someone needs to blog on that! Given Wright’s narrative view of scripture, we have a third way to look at all of scripture: it is neither 100% descriptive (as that would make it interesting but irrelevant), nor 100% prescriptive (as that would make it a context-insensitive religious rule book). Rather, all scripture has authority to the degree we can contextualise it and see our life in continuity with the story of scripture, etc. So to the extent that the situation of Acts mirrors our situation, we can learn from it. Something like that…!
Good comment Alastair.
OK… here is a thought on justice: what about the concept of jubilee? that seems some really great good news for the poor (i know it nevery happened!) that Jesus picked up as his manefesto…
maybe we should start a new blog post for this?
… and totally agree about descriptive / prescriptive…
well said liz. Got too much to do to comment further, but well said……………….
james
Liz - great comment thanks.
I do agree that we don’t want to keep quiet about Jesus or replicate what the social services offer. I do think that we want to see the whole gospel, both the good news that people can be friends with God, and also they the Kingdom is about bringing justice, peace, hope, life, healing, etc.
Jesus healed people because he had compassion on them. Not to get them “saved”.
I think the grand story of God is about the restoration of the whole cosmos, the whole of creation. So when we heal people, serve people, teach them about relationships, health, forgiveness all that is an expression of the good news of the kingdom.
I would want to draw a distinction between agenda and hope. I think loving people with agenda is just wrong. But i hope good things for people. I love my children, but i don’t have agenda for thier lives. But i hope they grow up and don’t take drugs, find something worthwhile to do with thier lives, that they enjoy. I hope they will find a meaningful way of following Jesus. But i will still love them and want to be with them, even if they don’t - that i think is the difference between agenda and hope.
That’s my 2p worth … what do you think?
I think Jesus had compassion on them AND wanted to get them “saved” ……………………………….
j
Yes I agree … but Jesus didn’t heal them BECAUSE he wanted them to get saved.
That’s my point.
Doesn’t the story of the healing of the “mobility-challenged” man have the most direct bearing on this discussion? IE he was healed and “saved” all in one, and it seemed that Jesus placed the greater emphasis on his “saving” (or forgiveness of sins), rather than his healing. At least, that is the way I read the story.
Does Jesus not say that forgiving sins is the greater miracle?
I think that has to held in tension with say “The Good Samiritan” … just for him, no hint that you should do other than take care of him?
Hey Guyz just found a little time to catch up with blog.
It seems to me from the progression of comments that there is a very gradual or little seperation of Gospel Good News (spreading the good news, preaching, “saving”, eternal life, connecting people with Jesus, forgiveness of sins) and being Missional (blessing others, hope for this life, healing and restoration, good works, social action and justice, charity, living life to full, fullness of life)
Can I suggest to view this as a “Coin”. A coin has two sides, heads and tails, though heads looks different from tails they are both part of the “Same Coin”.
You can’t have an order here, i.e.: does being Missional come after spreading the Gospel, Good News and “saving” or does the Gospesl come after being Missional?
There are part of the same “Coin” and asking this question is equivalent to spinning the coin on it’s axis.
The Body as different parts as Anna’s reverse of Epheshian 4 shows, some might feel more on the tail side of the coin some more the head side of the coin, but Jesus is “the whole Coin” and our continual focus on Jesus creates the “Coin” and is the key.
Jesus at the Center, always.
That Lotenna,
i guess I would want to see the “spreading of the gospel” as you put it, or perhaps what we have called evangelism is a subset of missional. Missional includes talking about Jesus, but also is bringing the good news of the Kingdom: caring for the poor etc.
I think eternal life is greater than non-eternal life, in more ways than just magnitude.
Lo
Yes … i totally agree…
I think your point about not having “an agenda” in loving someone is a good one, Rupert, and one which the whole church should hear and respond to. If we know anything about Jesus, it is surely that he was a man who loved people dearly, even those who would later turn against him. I still find one of the most powerful elements of the whole cross/atonement thing the idea that Jesus was nailed to that cross and cried out “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”. The love that Jesus had for his enemies just blows me away. In fact, this is something I will blog on quite soon…
Thanks Alastair …
I hope you blog about loving our enemies … it is such a radical thought eh?