Comments on: What is Missional Church? - Part 6 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/ Random wonderings about God and Life Fri, 05 Dec 2008 11:22:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Rupert’s Blog » What is Missional Church? - Part 8 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1206 Rupert’s Blog » What is Missional Church? - Part 8 Mon, 28 May 2007 20:51:50 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1206 [...] called: “The Apostles didn’t do evangelism“). Here are Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. For those who are thinking: when is he going to blog on something else? … I promise … [...] [...] called: “The Apostles didn’t do evangelism“). Here are Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. For those who are thinking: when is he going to blog on something else? … I promise … [...]

]]> By: rupert http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1097 rupert Wed, 16 May 2007 14:30:27 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1097 <img src="http://www.cce.uk.net/ims/Rupert.jpg" alt="Rupert" WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=75 HSPACE=15 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT /> <FONT color=blue>Thanks for commenting again Paul. Good to have you here again causing trouble... :wink: I do agree with you comment about the cross. I think i use the term "Christ event" at some point ... I guess i am wanting to see the whole of incarnation as part of the inauguration of the Kingdom, rather than just the cross which we have historically emphasised. Obviously the cross is part of that, but if you look at the much of the NT the resurrection seems to have just a high place. So i am wanting to redress some of the balance, but not lose sight of the crucial place of the cross. On the HS, i think the HS moves in response to faith, not doctrine or beliefs. This seems clear to me from Galatians and 1 corinthians. I think the issue is that people of faith tend to believe in the work of the HS and have faith for Him to move. More liberal people tend not to. But history is littered with examples of people whose doctrine was unorthodox, but moved in faith and the HS. </FONT> Rupert Thanks for commenting again Paul. Good to have you here again causing trouble… :wink:

I do agree with you comment about the cross. I think i use the term “Christ event” at some point … I guess i am wanting to see the whole of incarnation as part of the inauguration of the Kingdom, rather than just the cross which we have historically emphasised. Obviously the cross is part of that, but if you look at the much of the NT the resurrection seems to have just a high place.

So i am wanting to redress some of the balance, but not lose sight of the crucial place of the cross.

On the HS, i think the HS moves in response to faith, not doctrine or beliefs. This seems clear to me from Galatians and 1 corinthians. I think the issue is that people of faith tend to believe in the work of the HS and have faith for Him to move. More liberal people tend not to. But history is littered with examples of people whose doctrine was unorthodox, but moved in faith and the HS.

]]> By: Alastair http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1082 Alastair Mon, 14 May 2007 15:53:06 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1082 I agree, that was my second point really...we don't really see full-blown resurrection-denying liberals rolling around being slain in the spirit (or at least, I have not heard of it!). I agree, that was my second point really…we don’t really see full-blown resurrection-denying liberals rolling around being slain in the spirit (or at least, I have not heard of it!).

]]> By: Rupert’s Blog » Mission and Development - Part 1 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1080 Rupert’s Blog » Mission and Development - Part 1 Sun, 13 May 2007 22:13:33 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1080 [...] “paper” by Neil, who thought I might be interested in it following on from the posts on Missional Church, (which I intend to finish this week!). He was right! The paper is from the Micah Network, which [...] [...] “paper” by Neil, who thought I might be interested in it following on from the posts on Missional Church, (which I intend to finish this week!). He was right! The paper is from the Micah Network, which [...]

]]> By: Paul Ede http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1067 Paul Ede Fri, 11 May 2007 16:20:34 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1067 in response to the authentic doctrine thing...You're right, the holy spirit can still move among folks with some wacko doctrines and lifestyles (for a while) - its quite grey in some regards (and we are still prone to sin even after baptism in the spirit, clearly), but it does seem to be the case that (in general) while he is moving, he draws people closer to a belief in Christ as their personal Saviour (which we would expect) - most catholic charismatics (it has been observed) have tended to believe and think much more fully in Christ and get closer to more evangelical doctrine on the core issues (I think of Bohus etc in Slovakia) - obviously this doesn't apply to e.g. church government - this has empowered the ecumenical movement in recent years. We can't define where the Spirit will move, but what tends to be the result in experiential terms, and how does this change people's doctrinal beliefs? I think that the HS isn't part of any denomination but he seems to follow an agenda of pointing to Christ alone as our saviour, and lead people further away from beliefs like (eg) an inclusivist position... in response to the authentic doctrine thing…You’re right, the holy spirit can still move among folks with some wacko doctrines and lifestyles (for a while) - its quite grey in some regards (and we are still prone to sin even after baptism in the spirit, clearly), but it does seem to be the case that (in general) while he is moving, he draws people closer to a belief in Christ as their personal Saviour (which we would expect) - most catholic charismatics (it has been observed) have tended to believe and think much more fully in Christ and get closer to more evangelical doctrine on the core issues (I think of Bohus etc in Slovakia) - obviously this doesn’t apply to e.g. church government - this has empowered the ecumenical movement in recent years. We can’t define where the Spirit will move, but what tends to be the result in experiential terms, and how does this change people’s doctrinal beliefs? I think that the HS isn’t part of any denomination but he seems to follow an agenda of pointing to Christ alone as our saviour, and lead people further away from beliefs like (eg) an inclusivist position…

]]> By: Alastair http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1064 Alastair Fri, 11 May 2007 15:50:21 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1064 Some interesting questions Paul! I totally agree with your first paragraph -- its what I posted today on the Missional part 5 topic! Your second point, just two immediate thoughts: - many folks would associate the holy spirit's activity with the craziest and kookiest elements of the church...when the spirit moves it doesn't always seem to move with those that hold authenticate doctrine! - the day that the likes of Marcus Borg gets filled with the spirit, rolls around on the floor in fits of laughter, and then gets up to preach the "jesus is still dead in his grave" gospel, is the day when Mark Driscoll resigns from ministry and becomes a hairdresser. :-) Some interesting questions Paul!

I totally agree with your first paragraph — its what I posted today on the Missional part 5 topic!

Your second point, just two immediate thoughts:

- many folks would associate the holy spirit’s activity with the craziest and kookiest elements of the church…when the spirit moves it doesn’t always seem to move with those that hold authenticate doctrine!

- the day that the likes of Marcus Borg gets filled with the spirit, rolls around on the floor in fits of laughter, and then gets up to preach the “jesus is still dead in his grave” gospel, is the day when Mark Driscoll resigns from ministry and becomes a hairdresser.

:-)

]]> By: Paul Ede http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1058 Paul Ede Fri, 11 May 2007 13:38:18 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1058 Hello! Its been a while since I've posted anything, but i have been following as best I can. I really just want to be a bit cheeky - I've just run missional church parts four, five and six (and all comments) through Word and searched for the word "cross" which at one time not that long ago would have peppered any such discussions. But it only came up three times, and all of those were in Albo's comments in response to part 5! I just thought this was interesting...I'm massively pro more incarnational/kingdom theologies of mission but I do think (as I'm sure everyone else does, don't get me wrong!) that Kingdom derives a a lot of its meaning from the cross. Christ is King because of the cross and the victory he won over darkness there and we have the authority to establish the kingdom because he's passed on to us the authority he won to do that which was won on the cross. David Bebbington the church historian has suggested that historically evangelicals have been distinguished by four emphases: activism, biblicism, conversionism, crucicentrism. I would like to add that we probably need to throw in something about the spirit here because all pentecostal and charismatic stuff in the UK has always had evangelical doctrine at the core. I think that we need in post-modernity to broaden out our understanding more, with an emphasis on incarnation and resurrection (redressing a balance and emphasing the humanity of Christ and the importance of the body) but we need to be careful not to overlook the riches of our tradition because we are all so familiar with it. The cross makes sense of so much of what being missional and kingdom is about, even as we reduce our emphases (a process which is needed) on the crucicentrist/conversionist aspects of the tradition. This next bit is totally off the point, but... I have a question: have the charismata ever really appeared powerfully and legitimately (healing/prophecy etc.) in the midst of groups of believers in a way that hasn't either presupposed or engendered afterwards a deep sense of repentance/personal conversion/intimacy with Jesus/understanding of the cross (all traditionally evangelical emphases). Now the presence of charismata is clearly secondary to our understanding of who is/isn't a Christian (see 1 Cor) but is it not interesting that the Holy Spirit tends not to come into churches that deny/pay lip service to core evangelical doctrines like the full humanity and full divinity of Christ, and his historical death and resurrection. Its just a question. Or is it that we have missed where the Spirit is? Pentecostals got a bit of a shock when the HS jumped into mainline denominations and even the catholic church. Is he gonna jump into churches with a more traditionally liberal outlook next? And if he does, will he draw people back closer to doctrines that evangelicals have traditionally espoused...conversionism/crucicentrism etc... What do you think? Has the Spirit done this already? Can my more liberal friends be baptised in the Spirit? And if they can, can they retain some of their less-evangelical doctrines? Is there a point where what we believe/don't believe about God and Christ and the Trinity actually prevents the Spirit from moving among us? Hello! Its been a while since I’ve posted anything, but i have been following as best I can. I really just want to be a bit cheeky - I’ve just run missional church parts four, five and six (and all comments) through Word and searched for the word “cross” which at one time not that long ago would have peppered any such discussions. But it only came up three times, and all of those were in Albo’s comments in response to part 5! I just thought this was interesting…I’m massively pro more incarnational/kingdom theologies of mission but I do think (as I’m sure everyone else does, don’t get me wrong!) that Kingdom derives a a lot of its meaning from the cross. Christ is King because of the cross and the victory he won over darkness there and we have the authority to establish the kingdom because he’s passed on to us the authority he won to do that which was won on the cross.
David Bebbington the church historian has suggested that historically evangelicals have been distinguished by four emphases: activism, biblicism, conversionism, crucicentrism. I would like to add that we probably need to throw in something about the spirit here because all pentecostal and charismatic stuff in the UK has always had evangelical doctrine at the core. I think that we need in post-modernity to broaden out our understanding more, with an emphasis on incarnation and resurrection (redressing a balance and emphasing the humanity of Christ and the importance of the body) but we need to be careful not to overlook the riches of our tradition because we are all so familiar with it. The cross makes sense of so much of what being missional and kingdom is about, even as we reduce our emphases (a process which is needed) on the crucicentrist/conversionist aspects of the tradition.

This next bit is totally off the point, but…

I have a question: have the charismata ever really appeared powerfully and legitimately (healing/prophecy etc.) in the midst of groups of believers in a way that hasn’t either presupposed or engendered afterwards a deep sense of repentance/personal conversion/intimacy with Jesus/understanding of the cross (all traditionally evangelical emphases). Now the presence of charismata is clearly secondary to our understanding of who is/isn’t a Christian (see 1 Cor) but is it not interesting that the Holy Spirit tends not to come into churches that deny/pay lip service to core evangelical doctrines like the full humanity and full divinity of Christ, and his historical death and resurrection. Its just a question. Or is it that we have missed where the Spirit is? Pentecostals got a bit of a shock when the HS jumped into mainline denominations and even the catholic church. Is he gonna jump into churches with a more traditionally liberal outlook next? And if he does, will he draw people back closer to doctrines that evangelicals have traditionally espoused…conversionism/crucicentrism etc…
What do you think? Has the Spirit done this already? Can my more liberal friends be baptised in the Spirit? And if they can, can they retain some of their less-evangelical doctrines? Is there a point where what we believe/don’t believe about God and Christ and the Trinity actually prevents the Spirit from moving among us?

]]> By: rupert http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1048 rupert Fri, 11 May 2007 09:36:25 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1048 <img src="http://www.cce.uk.net/ims/Rupert.jpg" alt="Rupert" WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=75 HSPACE=15 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT /> <FONT color=blue> Thanks Alastair ... i think the gen 12 passage is a key one too, especially as understand missional church. Good quesiton re. salvation and kingdom. I think i probalby see salvation as a subset of kingdom. Salvation is part of the Kingdom. Salvation brings us into the Kingdom. I think that is my point from the previous posts on missional church: forgiveness of sins is not an end of itself; it is to make us fit for the kingdom. </FONT> Rupert
Thanks Alastair … i think the gen 12 passage is a key one too, especially as understand missional church.

Good quesiton re. salvation and kingdom. I think i probalby see salvation as a subset of kingdom. Salvation is part of the Kingdom. Salvation brings us into the Kingdom. I think that is my point from the previous posts on missional church: forgiveness of sins is not an end of itself; it is to make us fit for the kingdom.

]]> By: rupert http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1047 rupert Fri, 11 May 2007 09:32:17 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1047 <img src="http://www.cce.uk.net/ims/Rupert.jpg" alt="Rupert" WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=75 HSPACE=15 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT /> <FONT color=blue> Brian - thanks for the comment. I love the John 10:10 reference ... He has come to give us live, live in all it fulness. Yes. If we could live like that, it would be very attractive. Come on... </FONT> Rupert
Brian - thanks for the comment. I love the John 10:10 reference … He has come to give us live, live in all it fulness. Yes.

If we could live like that, it would be very attractive. Come on…

]]> By: Alastair http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1023 Alastair Tue, 08 May 2007 13:15:20 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1023 I liked this stuff. I've heard Wright preach on this topic (the mp3s are on the unofficial Wright page) and its good to hear it again. One emphasis I would add would be the whole Genesis 12 thing, you know, "blessed in order to bless". Wright puts says that the call of Abraham was about undoing the sin of Adam. That call found a realisation in the nation of Israel, but ultimately and fully in the perfect Jew, Jesus. Then by the nature of the Church being the his body, and its members being in Christ, we are saved into the people of God -- the church -- not simply to worship, but to "bless" the world so that all may be blessed, and in doing so, undo the sin of Adam by seeing the Kingdom come. Of course, until Jesus returns we can never complete the job...anyway, I find all of this very helpful in putting a historical context and meta-narrative around the concept of salvation and the corporate and Kingdom nature thereof. Also just read a paper my Miroslav Volf about liberation theology and pentecostolism, and how they both emphasis the physical and concrete elements of salvation (and how traditional evangelicalism has not). I can't get it straight in my head where salvation ends and kingdom starts. Perhaps that is the point? I liked this stuff. I’ve heard Wright preach on this topic (the mp3s are on the unofficial Wright page) and its good to hear it again. One emphasis I would add would be the whole Genesis 12 thing, you know, “blessed in order to bless”. Wright puts says that the call of Abraham was about undoing the sin of Adam. That call found a realisation in the nation of Israel, but ultimately and fully in the perfect Jew, Jesus. Then by the nature of the Church being the his body, and its members being in Christ, we are saved into the people of God — the church — not simply to worship, but to “bless” the world so that all may be blessed, and in doing so, undo the sin of Adam by seeing the Kingdom come. Of course, until Jesus returns we can never complete the job…anyway, I find all of this very helpful in putting a historical context and meta-narrative around the concept of salvation and the corporate and Kingdom nature thereof.

Also just read a paper my Miroslav Volf about liberation theology and pentecostolism, and how they both emphasis the physical and concrete elements of salvation (and how traditional evangelicalism has not).

I can’t get it straight in my head where salvation ends and kingdom starts. Perhaps that is the point?

]]> By: t Brian D http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1020 t Brian D Tue, 08 May 2007 11:36:30 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1020 r I like your last comment about the good news being about now, this minute, this week etc. 2 things: I think being missional is a state of mind & inorder to be most effective we need to feel good about ourselves. the good news is typefied by John 10:10, which for me is about piece despite the circumstances. It is also about attitude. When people see that in us it is very attractive. B r

I like your last comment about the good news being about now, this minute, this week etc. 2 things: I think being missional is a state of mind & inorder to be most effective we need to feel good about ourselves. the good news is typefied by John 10:10, which for me is about piece despite the circumstances. It is also about attitude. When people see that in us it is very attractive. B

]]> By: rupert http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1018 rupert Mon, 07 May 2007 21:55:37 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1018 <img src="http://www.cce.uk.net/ims/Rupert.jpg" alt="Rupert" WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=75 HSPACE=15 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT /> <FONT color=blue> Thanks Paul ... yes i agree there are some downsides to the analogy. I guess what i am wanting to emphasise is that the gospel / good news isn't just a hope for the future, but about our lives now. ... and maybe team God would have been better than team kingdom ... :wink: </FONT> Rupert
Thanks Paul … yes i agree there are some downsides to the analogy.

I guess what i am wanting to emphasise is that the gospel / good news isn’t just a hope for the future, but about our lives now.

… and maybe team God would have been better than team kingdom … :wink:

]]> By: Paul http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1007 Paul Fri, 04 May 2007 07:10:54 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1007 Thanks Rupert and given the state of the national game i'd say you were a shoe in! Yes i like the analogy, although it reminds me of the catch phrase that you hear around the Vineyard movt that "every one gets to play." I think it has some advantages as in its more about involvement, being a team, being in together. As with any analogy it has for some downsides associated with it in my mind, for instance what is the game, what do you do on the team that is different etc? Team God seems a good metaphor for kingdom of God but i guess that's why Jesus used so many different ways of talking about the same thing :) Thanks Rupert and given the state of the national game i’d say you were a shoe in!

Yes i like the analogy, although it reminds me of the catch phrase that you hear around the Vineyard movt that “every one gets to play.”

I think it has some advantages as in its more about involvement, being a team, being in together.

As with any analogy it has for some downsides associated with it in my mind, for instance what is the game, what do you do on the team that is different etc?

Team God seems a good metaphor for kingdom of God but i guess that’s why Jesus used so many different ways of talking about the same thing :)

]]> By: open source theology | collaborative theology for the emerging church http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1009 open source theology | collaborative theology for the emerging church Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/05/03/what-is-missional-church-part-6/#comment-1009 <!--%kramer-pre%-->church merger - the larger Kingdom Concordia University Wisconsin Welcomes Rob Bell and the Emergent Church Canadian stories...the Freeway, & Pernell Goodyear Missional / Institutional Clarifications What is Missional Church? - Part 6 <!--%kramer-post%--> links from Technoratichurch merger - the larger Kingdom Concordia University Wisconsin Welcomes Rob Bell and the Emergent Church Canadian stories…the Freeway, & Pernell Goodyear Missional / Institutional Clarifications What is Missional Church? - Part 6

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