Comments on: Guidance in Community - Part 4 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/ Random wonderings about God and Life Fri, 05 Dec 2008 11:18:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Rupert Ward http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-829 Rupert Ward Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:13:01 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-829 Pistol Pete - thanks for joining in the discussion.<br/><br/>I think you are right ... but i guess I am asking myself if that is a bad thing or not.<br/><br/>A wise friend told me this parable, in my early days of being a christian, when i was very enthusiastic and not a little judgemental about the seeming lack of enthusiasm of older christians:<br/><br/>A River at the source is full of life, bubbles aways, full of noise and enthusiasm, but doesn't have much substance, and has go around every obsticle. But as the river enter the flood plain, it is much less noisy, bubbly fast flowing, but has real depth and power.<br/><br/>I wonder if as we grow older, we can lose that desire to follow God, or look back in regret (as you say), but we can also follow Jesus but in a very different way from our youth? Is that not how children grow up? What do you think? Pistol Pete - thanks for joining in the discussion.

I think you are right … but i guess I am asking myself if that is a bad thing or not.

A wise friend told me this parable, in my early days of being a christian, when i was very enthusiastic and not a little judgemental about the seeming lack of enthusiasm of older christians:

A River at the source is full of life, bubbles aways, full of noise and enthusiasm, but doesn’t have much substance, and has go around every obsticle. But as the river enter the flood plain, it is much less noisy, bubbly fast flowing, but has real depth and power.

I wonder if as we grow older, we can lose that desire to follow God, or look back in regret (as you say), but we can also follow Jesus but in a very different way from our youth? Is that not how children grow up? What do you think?

]]> By: Rupert Ward http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-825 Rupert Ward Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:07:07 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-825 Alastair - you raise some good points. I think you are moving the discussion on in a very helpful way to how does God lead us, through all (and maybe more?) ways that you outline.<br/><br/>BUT i think you are raising a very important point at the end: Adam and Eve had a mandate. So does the church: love God & people, and make disciples. In one sense how much guidance do we need, or should we just be getting on with the job? Alastair - you raise some good points. I think you are moving the discussion on in a very helpful way to how does God lead us, through all (and maybe more?) ways that you outline.

BUT i think you are raising a very important point at the end: Adam and Eve had a mandate. So does the church: love God & people, and make disciples. In one sense how much guidance do we need, or should we just be getting on with the job?

]]> By: Rupert Ward http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-824 Rupert Ward Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:03:50 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-824 Thanks everyone for the comments. Good stuff. Sorry to be so long in acknowledging what you have written.<br/><br/>Paul - yes, i think you are right there are different types of guidance ... and i am sure you are right we often have our sat nav turned off. I guess though, one of the points i am trying to make in all these posts, is that often when God leads us individually, we do stumble along, seeking the way on the journey, taking some wrong turns etc. But when it comes to the church, we want it all sorted out before we begin the journey - we have to know where we are going, what it will look like, and be certain that we will get there. It seems as though we have different expectations for individual and corporate guidance, and that doesn't make sense to me.<br/><br/>Is that your experience too? Thanks everyone for the comments. Good stuff. Sorry to be so long in acknowledging what you have written.

Paul - yes, i think you are right there are different types of guidance … and i am sure you are right we often have our sat nav turned off. I guess though, one of the points i am trying to make in all these posts, is that often when God leads us individually, we do stumble along, seeking the way on the journey, taking some wrong turns etc. But when it comes to the church, we want it all sorted out before we begin the journey - we have to know where we are going, what it will look like, and be certain that we will get there. It seems as though we have different expectations for individual and corporate guidance, and that doesn’t make sense to me.

Is that your experience too?

]]> By: pistol pete http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-823 pistol pete Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:38:38 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-823 As a pastor, I hear a lot of new Christians asking "What is God's will for my life?" I hear it a lot less among life-long churchgoers. One of the challenges the Church faces is that we either look back with paralyzing regret or fond nostalgia and we fail to move forward with hope and faith in Christ. As a pastor, I hear a lot of new Christians asking “What is God’s will for my life?” I hear it a lot less among life-long churchgoers. One of the challenges the Church faces is that we either look back with paralyzing regret or fond nostalgia and we fail to move forward with hope and faith in Christ.

]]> By: Alastair http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-827 Alastair Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:43:35 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-827 I am not sure which model, if any, of guidance is more "right" or "suitable" for a church. But I suppose we have many streams of guidance available to us:<br/><br/>- the scriptures, in particular the New Testament letters concerning churches<br/><br/>- Wisdom: from the scriptures, from others<br/><br/>- Apostolic figures: those with a gift and calling to help guide the church at large<br/><br/>- the calling(s) of the community members<br/><br/>- the "desires of the heart" of the same<br/><br/>I suppose it might help to be certain what our mission is. Noah knew what it was (in detail!). Abraham knew it (in outline?). Also we can learn from the mistakes of people like Abraham. Even though he was promised the Holy Land, he disobeyed God at went to Egypt (was it twice?), I believe both times causing mayhem for his household. Egypt represented a worldly path which Abraham kept falling into. (Its been a while since I read Genesis so forgive me I am getting muddled here!).<br/><br/>Anyway, I suppose even Adam and Eve had a mission or mandate.<br/><br/>So my question is, what is the mission/mandate of the church? Or one's local church? Do the two differ?<br/><br/>I suspect if we asked a bunch of folks what they understood the mission/mandate of the Church to be, you would get a lot of different responses?<br/><br/>How does the mission of the church relate to the gospel and the kingdom?<br/><br/>Oh dear, I've gone off topic again... :-) I am not sure which model, if any, of guidance is more “right” or “suitable” for a church. But I suppose we have many streams of guidance available to us:

- the scriptures, in particular the New Testament letters concerning churches

- Wisdom: from the scriptures, from others

- Apostolic figures: those with a gift and calling to help guide the church at large

- the calling(s) of the community members

- the “desires of the heart” of the same

I suppose it might help to be certain what our mission is. Noah knew what it was (in detail!). Abraham knew it (in outline?). Also we can learn from the mistakes of people like Abraham. Even though he was promised the Holy Land, he disobeyed God at went to Egypt (was it twice?), I believe both times causing mayhem for his household. Egypt represented a worldly path which Abraham kept falling into. (Its been a while since I read Genesis so forgive me I am getting muddled here!).

Anyway, I suppose even Adam and Eve had a mission or mandate.

So my question is, what is the mission/mandate of the church? Or one’s local church? Do the two differ?

I suspect if we asked a bunch of folks what they understood the mission/mandate of the Church to be, you would get a lot of different responses?

How does the mission of the church relate to the gospel and the kingdom?

Oh dear, I’ve gone off topic again… :-)

]]> By: Alastair http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-826 Alastair Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:32:59 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-826 Paul Ede has also blogged on a similar topic: see <a HREF="http://www.urbanexpression.org.uk/blog_entry/paul_ede/a_philosophy_of_risk" REL="nofollow">A Philosophy Of Risk</a>. Paul Ede has also blogged on a similar topic: see A Philosophy Of Risk.

]]> By: paul http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-828 paul Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:31:47 +0000 http://rupertward.cce.uk.net/2007/03/27/guidance-in-community-part-4/#comment-828 or as you say Rupert, there are different sorts of models of guidance and sometimes God will use a specific one and sometimes a more general one? <br/><br/>Maybe God isn't that hidden but often we live with the cork in the bottle as it were and don't really want much guidance anyway - whereas Jesus seemed to practice this whole sort of presence thang all the time I very rarely bother unless it something where i have something staked.<br/><br/>In that sense i live under a general wander round do what i like sense anyway - sometimes i remember not too graze off every bit of low fruit i come into contact with but often I don't.<br/><br/>Maybe that is why the there is the law knocking around - it's like life for dummies - ok gang really don't murder that is just not a good choice etc.<br/><br/>The other thing that strikes me is usually I get so concerned about guidance so i have something/someone to blame when it all goes wrong - in classic Adam/Eve style i can point my finger and say her fault, serpent fault etc<br/><br/>So i can continue to blame someone for my choices - God you never really spelt out that whole don't murder thang did you, so its not my fault that i accidently topped my boss last week, it's your fault for not specifically guiding me not too - and really you should have given him a bullet proof vest if you didn't want me to shoot him...<br/><br/>I guess what i am saying in all this blabber is that my sat nav is often switched off, i prefer to wander around lost rather than ask for help and when i do its only usually to prove a point.<br/><br/>Hmmm i definately need to spend more time with the guide and less time on the ance ;) or as you say Rupert, there are different sorts of models of guidance and sometimes God will use a specific one and sometimes a more general one?

Maybe God isn’t that hidden but often we live with the cork in the bottle as it were and don’t really want much guidance anyway - whereas Jesus seemed to practice this whole sort of presence thang all the time I very rarely bother unless it something where i have something staked.

In that sense i live under a general wander round do what i like sense anyway - sometimes i remember not too graze off every bit of low fruit i come into contact with but often I don’t.

Maybe that is why the there is the law knocking around - it’s like life for dummies - ok gang really don’t murder that is just not a good choice etc.

The other thing that strikes me is usually I get so concerned about guidance so i have something/someone to blame when it all goes wrong - in classic Adam/Eve style i can point my finger and say her fault, serpent fault etc

So i can continue to blame someone for my choices - God you never really spelt out that whole don’t murder thang did you, so its not my fault that i accidently topped my boss last week, it’s your fault for not specifically guiding me not too - and really you should have given him a bullet proof vest if you didn’t want me to shoot him…

I guess what i am saying in all this blabber is that my sat nav is often switched off, i prefer to wander around lost rather than ask for help and when i do its only usually to prove a point.

Hmmm i definately need to spend more time with the guide and less time on the ance ;)

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