Yesterday, I was preaching in church again, and in light of discussions in a previous post and comments, here is a summary, to allow comments, thoughts or experiences from anyone, whether you were there or not. It is part of our money series we have been doing this year. An MP3 should be available here by Wednesday if you fancy having a listen.
In our protestant tradition, poverty is not something that we have really thought about much, except to say it is bad and should be avoided at all costs (and occasionally to say that it is obviously a sign of not following God, having faith, or being blessed in some way!). But in other traditions, a vow of poverty or making poverty a virtue, has been a strong emphasis (eg. in the ascetic movement, Monastic movement, and in the Catholic Church. Mother Theresa is a classic example of someone who took a vow of poverty, to give herself to serving the poor).
There is much in the Bible that would advocate this course of action: “sell your possessions and give to the poor” say Jesus (Lk 12:33. See also: Lk 14:33; Mt 6:19; Mt 19:21). It is easy to “reinterpret” those verses, to make them something that doesn’t apply to us today, but before we do, lets consider some of the warning the Bible gives us about the dangers of lusting after or having riches and wealth:
- We can fall into temptation, ruin and destruction (1 Tim 6:9)
- We can wander from faith (1 Tim 6:10)
- We can become arrogant and not trust God (1 Tim 6:17)
- It is hard to enter in to the Kingdom (the fullness of live now, rather than heaven) (Mt 19:23)
- We can become unfruitful (Mt 13:22)
These are serious warnings, and as I was writing the sermon and speaking I was feeling challenged and uncomfortable about my riches and comfortable lifestyle. This was no finger wagging time, but was sobering about what the Bible seems to be saying about poverty.
But there is also stuff in the Bible about wealth and prosperity. It is harder to find in the NT, but there are some seriously rich people in the Bible (Abraham, David, Solomon, Zacchaeus) for example. There is also verses about prosperity as a blessing for those who walk with God and are obedient (eg. Dt 30).
So how do we reconcile these two streams of teaching and understanding? Well, perhaps neither poverty nor riches is right or wrong, but it is more about our attitude to money that is most important. God might call some to poverty, some to riches (which is perhaps the harder journey!), or there may be different seasons in our lives where we experience both. So what would Jesus say is the most important attribute to have concerning money?
I suggested that there was a ladder to climb. At the bottom of the ladder, when we are first grappling with our attitude to money in a society that is continually lusting for more, is contentment. This word is mentioned 7 times in the NT, and 6 of them are about money / possessions (eg. Phil 4:11-12, where Paul says he has learned the secret of being content in any situation, whether has loads, or nothing!).
The second rung of the ladder is generosity. I suggested that generosity is not the same as giving. Giving is good, but it becomes generosity when it costs. For example the Macedonian churches in 2 Corinthians gave generously out of there extreme poverty (2 Cor 8:2).
But the thing that Jesus seems to value more than anything else is being faithful or trustworthy (eg. Mt 25:21 & Lk 16:10-12), which we learn through contentment and generosity. This is when He trust us with Kingdom resources, knowing that we will use them wisely. This is when God can trust us with more money (tricky issue as we can’t give to get, otherwise we haven’t really learned the lesson of contentment!), and trust us with “true riches” … riches of the Kingdom: influence, power, fruitfulness etc.
Mother Theresa followed the path of poverty to come to this place of being truthworthy, and she was then trusted with Kingdom riches of influence and power. God could trust her, knowing that she wouldn’t abuse those riches, but use them for the Kingdom, as she had proved trustworthy with money.
What do you think? What are you experiences of poverty or wealth, and what did you learn? Does it surprise you to learn that Jesus talks more about faithful or trustworthy with money than anything else? Or perhaps you don’t agree?
Tags: Money, Poverty, Wealth, Mother Theresa
Some interesting and challenging thoughts here and I appreciated hearing it in more depth on Sunday. I guess my main quibble would be that whilst I agree with your three attitudes, I’m not convinced that its a simple 1-2-3 steps in that order relationship (although that probably makes a better sermon if I’m allowed to be a bit cheeky).
I guess I think that motivation is almopst always mixed in this life and I can think of times when maybe I haven’t felt very content with what I’ve got, but also have had a genuine desire to give in a way that actually costs/hurts and in ways that are kingdom orientated. What I’ve found is that following that higher desire rather than the fleshly protecting of what I’ve got can actually move me towards a place of feeling more content. Not that I’m saying that I’ve got any of these sorted - long way from it, but I do think the relationship between them is quite complex.
I also think that there’s a real place for humility in the mix as well, as opposed to arroogance of trusting in wealth, which amounts to self-sufficiency. A recognition that all that we have is from God, that we’re dependant on him, etc…
Anyway, thats my thoughts for now.
Tony
I very much enjoyed this talk. Thanks for preaching this! It has raised a bunch of questions, however (suprise suprise!).
1) Can you clarify what you mean by “poverty” ? When I think of poverty I think of the following: dirty water, poor sanitation, people dressed in rags, disease, illness, malnutrition, inadequate housing, etc. To suggest that this is not a curse seems rather odd. I can’t think why God would call anyone to live like that. Why do we give so much to charities to help such people if it could be the way God wants them to live?
I am guessing that is not what you mean by poverty. Do you perhaps mean something more like “suffiency”, where you have a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and bread on the table, but only just, and nothing more? A simple lifestyle of depending on God to meet your basic needs?
2) What do you make of the following verses? I was hoping for a mention of these in the talk. I always thought the 2nd verse was promising adequate resources (esp financial).
2 Cor 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that although he was rich, he became poor for your sakes, so that you by his poverty could become rich.
2 Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace overflow to you so that because you have enough of everything in every way at all times, you will overflow in every good work.
I was also thinking about the command to give our our possessions away. If all of Jesus’ disciples were given this command, his ministry would have been finished, because as we know it was financed by rich men (and especially women!). And why did he always say give to the poor? Was it because they needed to be lifted OUT OF POVERTY and therefore needed the money? If God is pro-poverty, surely the command would be to give the money to God/temple/church, otherwise we have a wealth-transfer and now the poor person has all the money!
I do think that the prosperity teaching, especially in the US, is way off track. I have heard a preach saying that if Jesus could ride into town on a brand new donkey, then we should be able to drive around in brand new cars (praise God)!
hmmm i’m just left thinking of Hard-Fi’s song, cash machine…
Go to a cash machine
To get a ticket home
Message on the screen
Says don’t make plans, you’re broke
No, no this can’t be right
I know that time is tight
I’ve only just been paid
Three weeks five days, til I’m seen
Right…
No…
I scratch a living, it ain’t easy
You know it’s a drag
I’m always paying, never make it
But you can’t look back
I wonder if I’ll ever get
To where I want to be
Better believe it
I’m working for the cash machine
I try to phone a friend
My credit’s in the red
I try to skip the fare
Ticket inspector’s there
No no, this can’t be right
I live an honest life
It seems like sometimes
You don’t cross the line
You don’t get
By…
No…
I scratch a living, it ain’t easy
You know it’s a drag
I’m always paying, never make it
But you can’t look back
I wonder if I’ll ever get
To where I want to be
Better believe it
Yeah…
What am I gonna do
My girlfriend’s test turned blue
We tried to play it safe
That night we could not wait
No no, this can’t be right
She said it would be alright
I can’t afford to be a daddy
So I leave tonight…
No…
I scratch a living, it ain’t easy
You know it’s a drag
I’m always paying, never make it
But you can’t look back
I wonder if I’ll ever get
To where I want to be
Better believe it
I’m working for the cash machine
Cash machine
Cash machine …
There’s a hole in my pocket, my pocket, my pocket
There’s a hole in my pocket, my pocket, my pocket
There’s a hole in my pocket, my pocket, my pocket
There’s a hole in my pocket
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
Hey Rupert,
Just to say that, from my point of view, the preach on Sunday was one of the best I’ve heard: relevant (both to us as Christians and also to our culture/world), practical, controversial, challenging, and acknowledging of some of the complexities and paradoxes of the with-God life. Your three points have lodged themselves in my mind!
Thumbs up :o)
Hey everyone - thanks for your comments.
Tony - good point about the causal links between the 3. I still think there is probably some kind of progression most of the time, perhaps particularly with faithfull / trustworthy being impossilbe to get to without first having learnt contentment and generosity. But i am sure you are right, it is probable more complex than i was portraying.
Alastair - good points once again! I think probably i am using “poverty” in the sense of having food and clothes, but not owning “things”. Mother Theresa clearly didn’t possess anything, but she did have a place to stay and food to eat (most of the time!). I guess too, there is vast difference in choosing that for the sake of the gospel, and it being imposed, where you have no choice.
In relation to the verse in 2 Cor - i think my point is that there is stuff on both sides to say: you could choose “poverty” or simplicity, where we have nothing OR we could choose to life a wealthy life for the Kingdom (as a resource). There is stuff in the Bible that you can use to argue for either of those. Which leads me to think that it isn’t either which is right or wrong, but more about our attitude in the midst of the little or lot that we have.
So some are called to be rich and a resource for the Kingdom (eg the wealthy who supported Jesus ministry) and some called not have nothing (Jesus himself, who clearly didn’t have a home, all had a common pot of money etc). But I think we do need to realise that the Bible seems to saying that the harder road to travel down in having money … there is more possibility of losing our faith, not trusting God etc etc.
I guess i don’t particularly feel called to a life of poverty, but do feel enormously challenged to be careful of my attitude and realise that i have chosen the harder road. But wouldn’t it great to see some who embrace the simple life, in community, sharing possessions … a new urban monasticism? Both of those are possible i think.
Paul - thanks for the song and bringing some culture to this blog
I have to confess i don’t know, but i can guess how the tune goes for “there’s a hole in my pocket” … but then maybe i have had too much time with children making up silly ryhmes!
Adam - thanks.
I know you have a pretty wide exposure to other christian streams … do you see something that could emerge in the west of community living, in simplicity? Shared resources?
Thanks for your reply, Rupert. I am up for complex living and sharing resources! Or perhaps we should live lives which are as complex as need be in order to do the ministry God has called us to.
Yes Alastair. I think you hit it on the head there: what ministry God is calling us to. I guess i am challenging the assumption that we need to be wealthy, but if we do choose that / sense God is calling us to that, then we must do that with our eyes open to the potential pitfalls.
that is what itunes is for, lol, instant culture fix
it’s a good song but not as good as stars of CCTV, which is brilliant songwriting/cultural reflection of the “glamour” of crime…
Before going on to talk about poverty as a potential ideal, I must say, I really don’t think it’s true that poverty is in any way an easier calling than wealth, and I don’t think the Bible says this. What I do believe it says is that it is often easier for the wealthy, or those who have chosen wealth, to fall into sin. In terms of which is harder to choose and pursue, I think it is fairly obvious that the answer is poverty. My reasoning? Take all the people in the world and see how many are choosing to pursue poverty, and how many are choosing to pursue wealth. The latter is clearly the path of less resistance.
In terms of where I have seen people living out poverty in community in the West, the example that springs to mind is the lay celibate ecumenical brotherhood of men who are part of the communities movement which my family have been involved in. They live together and have everything in common, and have an ideal of living basically and simply - in terms of what they actually need to go about their daily lives of service. (So one or two of them will have a few nice suits, because that’s what they need in their line of work, but most of them won’t.) So some of them will be living off e.g. 10-20% of their take-home pay. The surplus is invested in the Kingdom, both in terms of their own service and in terms of giving away to others.
I think if you were to ask any of them whether they could continue to choose this life - so contrary to the materialistic world, the complacent and greedy flesh and the cunning devil - alone, without the mutual support of a community they would say no: pursuing poverty is a considerably harder call than wealth.
To reframe this though: it would also be valid to say that they are indeed wealthy, and have been richly blessed by God in this way. The challenge to them, in their financial wealth, is to live simply, to choose to spend this wealth not primarily on themselves but for the Kingdom - and in that way they are a real challenge to us. Similarly, Mother Teresa was actually very wealthy, if looked at in terms of the money which in later years poured into her organisation. Yet she, as a wealthy person, chose not to spend this wealth on herself.
Anyone starting to feel uncomfortable? Because I know I do! :o)
Adam - thanks for the comment, and the clarification on what i was trying to say. Once again, you say it reallly well.
Maybe it would be better to call it simplicity rather than poverty? It really is not having stuff, owning things, possessions, money etc. etc. And i think you are right, Mother Theresa was incredibly rich, but not really financially. I guess there was always money coming into her houses, but spent hersefl on the poor, and her riches were not of this world!
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Hi Rupert, yes, I agree, I think talking about “simplicity” rather than “poverty” clarifies things in a helpful way.
I guess the question then is, to what extent are we all, actually, called to simplicity in the way we live? I think the answer implicit in your talk - re putting the Kingdom first, generosity - is, at least considerably.
I like the term “simplicity”. I’m happy to accept this word to describe a calling for some (all?). I just couldn’t get my head round a calling to live in poverty.
This is indeed challenging. I suppose the important thing is to remember that this will look different in different places. One group’s version of simplicity may be quite different to another.
Another thought: the confusion between simplicity and second-best. I’ve observed an attitude prevalent in many churches in the UK of “second best”. Its a sort of half-hearted slap-dash attitude, of spending the least amount of money/resource to get a job done. To me this attitude smacks of (financial) unbelief, mean-spiritedness, stingyness, and generally a shame for the Kingdom. Does anyone know what I am on about?
My worry is that some people will start of with the credible aim of living “simply” but end up descending into the “second-best” attitude.
If God really has promised us “all grace overflow[ing] to you so that [we have] have enough of everything in every way at all times” (!), I see no need to scrimp, economise, cut-back, under-invest, and generally act as if God has not promised more than sufficient resources to get the job done and then some.
So I wonder how this interacts with the call to live simply?
I see two continuums here:
As to how we are called to live:
1: (cursed) poverty -> simplicity -> (sinful?) material abundance
As to how we are called to invest in God’s Kingdom:
2: (sinful) half-rate attitude -> job done well and then some -> (sinful) opulence
Perhaps its important to see a distinction between the two concepts?
As a closing note, I have seen churches that have operated in an opulence-mode when it comes to ministry, which I think is wrong. Like this one church that did a sanctuary refurb, and literally gold-plated stuff (a la Solomon’s temple). I don’t believe that Solomon’s temple is a blueprint for our church refurbs…however, perhaps it does serve as a good example that if God wants us to do a job, its important to do it well!
Alastair - i like the word simplicity, but i am still not sure it completely captures what the bible seems to be saying.
I think we have to balance the verse you bring (have enough of everything at all times) with Paul saying that he has learnt to be content even when in need. Clearly then he didn’t have enough …
And I suppose this is my point: that it is easy to take hold of one side of what the bible teaches (eg. God will provide) and ignore the other … sometimes he doesn’t seem to!
I do abolutely agree with second best attitude (i guess i would call it a poverty mindset) - but i wonder if that is more about a mindset. Some of the monks / nuns, who have nothing, don’t seem to have this mindset, but others who have much more materially, do!?!?
I love your continuums … and i think that we should be living in the centre ground somewhere … but i guess that could look very different for different people?
Rupert, I suppose you are right, there is a tension between the promise “all things provided” and then the challenge of being content when in need. I’ve not thought about this a lot but this perhaps is ground for future preaching: how we respond in the waiting-time between now and receiving God’s promises. And what if we never receive them? Is God a liar? etc…
Yes I think the “half-hearted attitude” is as you say a mindset…one unfortunately that is not uncommon in Western Christianity. So perhaps that is an additional “danger” of wealth and resource: an increasing reluctance to lavishly use it to bless others and to invest into the Kingdom.
And yes, I would see the specifics of how living in a balanced way across both continuums looking very different in different societies. Contextualisation and all that…
yes - i agree about talking / teaching more about these things. One of the things that constantly amazeses me, particularly when we talk about faith is the bit in Heb 11 which is clear about people NOT seeing what they were beliving for! You don’t hear that mentioned often.
True about contextualisation too … and possibly not just different societies, but also about different callings. Some in the UK embrace a much “poorer” lifestyle than other (eg. monks, missionaries etc) and others choose the path of wealth.