This is getting confusing. The facts are as follows:

1) Israel went into exile
2) This happened via national invasion
3) The blessings and curses found in Deut (part of/addition to Mosaic covenant between Israel and Yahweh) was the “law” behind this, in that
a) Israel was unfaithful to Yahweh
b) Yahweh, as per his law of sowing and reaping, promised he would send the nation (including those not guilty of the exile-sins) into exile, as a direct result of
their national sin

4) The agency that God used to punish/discipline Israel was Babylon

There must be 100 verses at least which explicitly state this, throughout the OT. Surely there is no debate with the above?

Just one short comment from me:

I think the issue is one of cause. So Israel went into exile, or the law of sowing and reaping, or natural disasters … for me the point where i find difficulty is if God caused it.

So i don’t see God behind suffering (as you say Paul) to find meaning, but i find God IN THE MIDST of suffering - that seems to me be the message of the incarnation. We constantly want to ask why something happens (who is to blame?). God meanwhile walks in the midst of our pain, uninterested in our questions, but content to be present.

Thats Ezekiel (I think), post destruction of Jerusalem in 586BC - its a prophecy about God’s judgement against Israel and then a series of Oracles against the surrounding nations

Jesus warned of God’s judgement to come upon Jerusalem and Israel. This was realised by the Roman army(war). Surely another example?

I also believe in the “law of sowing and reaping” but if we do not posit God behind it, what agency empowers this law? Satan? Otherwise sowing and reaping sounds just like Karma.

Check out Parableman’s take on this issue, he can put it better than I can.

Also going back to the original threat, I am not sure Carbon is the new sex, because I don’t think its that controversial. It seems most people these days are waking up to the reality of the carbon crisis. The same cannot be sad, unfortunately, in the realm of sexuality and relationships.

For example, our government are thinking of changing the building codes so that new buildings in just a few years time will have to be carbon neutral. I wish our government had the same enthusiasm to usher in a Godly view of sexuality to our nation.

I would say that eco friendly is the new Godlyness!

Where we started on this: are some natural disasters or wars because of God’s judgement? Personally i just don’t believe that. I do however, believe in the law of sowing and reaping … or of consequences. And that is something we need to take seriously.

Have you got a copy of Webb’s book? I am banned from buying new books right now (don’t ask!) but would love to read this book. I just finished reading “Men and women in the church” by Sumners and it referred to Webb’s book a few times.

I really struggle with the ethnic cleansing episodes as well! It seems so unfair of God. But as you say, it did appear to be “kill or be killed”.

I agree with your comment about the dangers of seeing the OT (or even NT) as normative for today…

I haven’t really wrapped my head around Wright’s view on the authority of scripture yet…haven’t heard your preach on it either

Having said all that, I still don’t think you can fudge it when scripture says that God has judged someone or some nation. I a pretty certain Wright would not agree with that perspective. It also means you might as well throw out half of the prophetic literature, since they were only bluffing and when they said God was going to historical judge etc. However, I realise I am going completely off topic here, so perhaps we can blog on this in the future!

I agree with Alastair too about not wanting to use the Bible as a scientific textbook.

It probably really deserves a longer response than I am able to give here, but i see something called progressive revelation in the Bible. This asserts that God is progressively revealing more of himself throughout Biblical History. So that people in the OT times didn’t have the full revelation of God that we have who live this side of the cross. So we really have to interpret the events of the OT in light of our understanding of God in the NT.

This means that our understanding of judgement has to start with a look at the NT, which i think as Alastair says is really soemthing that happens at the end of all time.

We also need to interpret different situations in thier historical context. For example, how do we understand the ethnic cleansing by Israel in the OT when moving into the promised land? We need to understand this in the historical context of “kill or be killed”. They didn’t have any option: they had to remove the other people groups, or they would in turn be killed themselves. But we don’t live in that kind of culture, and it would be utterly inappropriate for us condone that kind of behaviour, or to believe that the Bible endorses it.

Webb, in his book, “Slaves, Women and Homosexuals” calls this the redemptive trend hermenutic … and i think is very helpful for our interpretation of the biblical texts.

I think too that we have to be very careful about taking certain events in the OT as normative for us today. Often they stories … written from the perspective of the people writing. BUT there isn’t often commentary on what happened, why did it happen, what did God think about that, is kt something to be repeated, etc etc. So for example, the flood is great story, but one that we do know that GOd says he will never do again! So we can’t use it as an example of what might be happening today.

I think this is where Wright’s question: “how is narrative authoritative for us today?” is such an important question for us to grapple with. That way i think we might move away from a very literal interpretation of the Scriptures, but still hold on them being inspired, useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

However, is it not apparent from reading pretty much any book from the OT, and especially the Prophets, that God’s judgement is most often realised within history? And by that I mean natural disasters, national invasion, etc. Surely we could pick pretty much any Prophet, most of them banged on about Israel being invaded by Assyria, etc. Why was Israel taken captive? Because of God’s judgement against the nation. Actually, if read carefully, its hard to find supra-historical judgement at all in the bible…I know we see it in the New Testament, but there’s still lots of historical judgement there as well (perhaps I should blog on this, too much for a comment here I think!)

And its not just Israel. I remember reading somewhere in the Prophets the other day that after God had risen up a pagan nation (Assyria? Egypt?) to strike down Israel because of their sin, he then announced (via a prophet) judgement on that nation for their sin and pride in attacking Israel!

What I would say is that perhaps all of the examples I can think of is judgement against nations/cities When we consider individuals, then it seems although scripture expects historical judgement against “wrong-doers” (Cf. most of the psalms), it also illustrates this doesn’t always happen (cf. in particular Ecclesiastes). I guess that was where the doctrine of last judgement developed from…otherwise God would ultimately not be just.

Anyway, within the first 12 chapters of Genesis you have plenty of natural disaster judgement against cities and even people. EG:

- the flood - “natural” as in floods are natural. Certainly the point of this was judgement against sin.

- destruction of sodom etc - whatever the reason God destroyed these cities, scripture is clear that
(a) he did
(b) they were places of extreme sin
(c) it looked like a natural disaster (volcanic eruption and/or earthquake)

Perhaps ultimately this is a question of logic. I think its clear that

a) God causes natural/historical disasters as a result of his judgement against a city or nation

b) but that does NOT imply that all historical disasters are a result of his judgement. (Jesus said as much in the gospels regarding the towers that fell and crushed folk)

So whilst I believe God does act in our history, I would sympathise with others in agreeing that its awfully hard to see when he does. Is there anyway we can know for sure?

I really like the Jim Wallis article you linked to in your comment. Very heartening indeed!

On the judgement texts, which ones specifically are you referring to? I think it is a very difficult topic. Mostly it seems the countries that are hit most by famine, war, disease, poverty are African, Asian or South American. These are often more “christian” than those in the western world, which are often insulated by wealth from these kinds of disasters. I just don’t go for the UK or US having more favour from God, while these other countries being under God’s judgement.

I guess i see a difference between natural disasters, which i don’t see being originated by God, but somehow a natural consequence of our broken world, and wars, injustice etc which seeems a consequence of man’s selfishness and sin.

I think the signs of the end of times, are just that: signs. Not part of God’s judgement, but things that will happen as the world is in decay, and mankind bears the “fruit” of our selfishness.

However, last time I read my bible, it talked about a God who visited judgement upon people within history. Almost all of the judgement texts, both old testament and new, refer to Yahweh or Jesus judging and bringing retribution in history. So I guess its not too crazy to look for a sign of God doing that. Just a thought!

Having said that, the idea of wishing or praying for violence to “hasten the end times” is about the daftest thing I have ever heard What next? I think Tim LaHayes rapture books have a lot to answer for…

We need some Paulish fiery words and long sentences (like most of his Episitles).