Last night was the airing on Channel 4, in the UK, of God is Green, as mentioned in a previous post. Mark Dowd presented the program, looking at why religious leaders have been so silent on environmental issues. But that does seem to be changing somewhat, with the Bishop of London pledging not to fly for personal reasons for a year, having previously declared that driving large cars, or flying on holiday was sinful.
So Mark Dowd asks “Is Carbon the new Sex?”. [Maybe I am in danger of fueling an interesting debate that has been happening in the comments on another post, "Dancing in the Aisles"?] Will we be confessing our carbon sin to each other, as we have been confessing other sin?
Well, perhaps not. But finally the church is waking up to its responsibility to be prophetic to our society. So often we have limited being prophetic to some words that are shared (and often forgotten pretty quickly afterwards) on a Sunday morning when we Christians gather together. But we have often lost our role of being a prophetic voice to the society we live in, calling people to live less selfishly for the sake of others, our children and their children.
It seems to me that we have not bothered about our responsibility to care and stewardship of creation, as our theology has often got in the way. There are still some wacky Christian groups who see the changing patterns of the world’s weather as a sign of the “end times”, the immanence of the return of Christ. And why bother with taking care of the world if Jesus is coming back soon, and we will have a “new heaven and new earth” … all will be restored?
Fortunately, that view is increasingly less common in the Christian world (although it has to be admitted there is still a lot of it about, for example see this article).The early church thought Jesus would return before they died. They have been people throughout history that think the end of the world is nigh. What happens if it isn’t? What if there is another 2000 years, or 10,000 years?
Added to this is the interpretation of the passage in Genesis 1 … where God tells the first man and woman to “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth” [verse 28]. Unfortunately this has been taken in isolation of the mandate in Genesis 2:15 to “work it [creation] and take care of it“. [See a post by Paul for more on the Hebrew words used in Gen 2:15 and for his take on the program last night.]
We are seeing that God has given us responsibility to care for creation. We are to be stewards, not consumers of the world we live in, ruled by profit and GDP. Surely we have a responsibility to pass on the world we live in the best possible condition to our children, and to call the rest of the world to be similarly minded? And surely, as Mark Dowd pointed out in his film, we have a responsibility to the poor, who have done very little to contribute to climate change, but would be ones most affected?
Wouldn’t it be great for the church to be known as the group of people who are at the forefront of the movement calling people to live less for themselves, and more for the benefit of the whole?
Tags: Channel 4, Environment, Global Warming, Mark Dowd, God is Green
I agree Rupert [about carbon being the new sex and the church being a prophetic voice on the environment
]and from watching the show i feel quite hopeful that people are waking up – especially christians…
thanks for the links as well
I read at the weekend (Observer Magazine) that US religious groups have declared that Al Gore’s Film (Inconvenient Truth) is sacrilegious as global warming is a sign of Jesus’ return!! So should we INCREASE our emissions then and hurry his return!??!?!
Christians can so piss me off!! And as for all the guff about Hurricane Katrina being God’s judgement on ‘sinful’ New Orleans – oh f*ck off! If that is what God is like I don’t want to know him. And its enough to make me wnat to stick 2 fingers up at the church as well and shake the dust of my feet!
Paul … i do hope you are right. There are some positive signs.
Andrew. Thanks for the comments. Your sentiments i agree with; but i think to be fair to the church and thinking Christians, there are many that are seeing things differently, that may be more in accord with views that you and I share. For example Jim Wallis.
I suspect too that it is a growing group, which i think would be good for us to add our voice too, and not just walk away!
Yes, Yes, and more Yes!
How come most of the cool people live in the UK.
Andrew,
Ugh,
Why does that not suprise me.
It’s like that group that wanted to have violence in Israel ’cause then the rapture was coming soon.
We need some Paulish fiery words and long sentences (like most of his Episitles).
David – thanks for your comments.
Oh i wish all the cool people were in the in UK!! We have some fruitcakes too
After seeing “Inconvenient Truth” I thought that it should be mandatory viewing of every Christian! Sad to hear that some folks have taken the opposite point of view.
However, last time I read my bible, it talked about a God who visited judgement upon people within history. Almost all of the judgement texts, both old testament and new, refer to Yahweh or Jesus judging and bringing retribution in history. So I guess its not too crazy to look for a sign of God doing that. Just a thought!
Having said that, the idea of wishing or praying for violence to “hasten the end times” is about the daftest thing I have ever heard
What next? I think Tim LaHayes rapture books have a lot to answer for…
Hey alastair … good thoughts once again! I totally agree about tim lehaye and the left behind series. I personally think they need to dumped into the dustbin! (not having actually ever read any of them!!!!).
On the judgement texts, which ones specifically are you referring to? I think it is a very difficult topic. Mostly it seems the countries that are hit most by famine, war, disease, poverty are African, Asian or South American. These are often more “christian” than those in the western world, which are often insulated by wealth from these kinds of disasters. I just don’t go for the UK or US having more favour from God, while these other countries being under God’s judgement.
I guess i see a difference between natural disasters, which i don’t see being originated by God, but somehow a natural consequence of our broken world, and wars, injustice etc which seeems a consequence of man’s selfishness and sin.
I think the signs of the end of times, are just that: signs. Not part of God’s judgement, but things that will happen as the world is in decay, and mankind bears the “fruit” of our selfishness.
Hey Rupert,
I really like the Jim Wallis article you linked to in your comment. Very heartening indeed!
Yes, i thought it was good too.
I agree, Rupert, one cannot look at economic wealth or prosperity and simply conclude God is blessing a nation! Nor can we conclude that when disaster strikes that God must be punishing (surely one of the themes of the Book of Job).
However, is it not apparent from reading pretty much any book from the OT, and especially the Prophets, that God’s judgement is most often realised within history? And by that I mean natural disasters, national invasion, etc. Surely we could pick pretty much any Prophet, most of them banged on about Israel being invaded by Assyria, etc. Why was Israel taken captive? Because of God’s judgement against the nation. Actually, if read carefully, its hard to find supra-historical judgement at all in the bible…I know we see it in the New Testament, but there’s still lots of historical judgement there as well (perhaps I should blog on this, too much for a comment here I think!)
And its not just Israel. I remember reading somewhere in the Prophets the other day that after God had risen up a pagan nation (Assyria? Egypt?) to strike down Israel because of their sin, he then announced (via a prophet) judgement on that nation for their sin and pride in attacking Israel!
What I would say is that perhaps all of the examples I can think of is judgement against nations/cities When we consider individuals, then it seems although scripture expects historical judgement against “wrong-doers” (Cf. most of the psalms), it also illustrates this doesn’t always happen (cf. in particular Ecclesiastes). I guess that was where the doctrine of last judgement developed from…otherwise God would ultimately not be just.
Anyway, within the first 12 chapters of Genesis you have plenty of natural disaster judgement against cities and even people. EG:
- the flood – “natural” as in floods are natural. Certainly the point of this was judgement against sin.
- destruction of sodom etc – whatever the reason God destroyed these cities, scripture is clear that
(a) he did
(b) they were places of extreme sin
(c) it looked like a natural disaster (volcanic eruption and/or earthquake)
Perhaps ultimately this is a question of logic. I think its clear that
a) God causes natural/historical disasters as a result of his judgement against a city or nation
b) but that does NOT imply that all historical disasters are a result of his judgement. (Jesus said as much in the gospels regarding the towers that fell and crushed folk)
So whilst I believe God does act in our history, I would sympathise with others in agreeing that its awfully hard to see when he does. Is there anyway we can know for sure?
It also depends on how you interpret the Bible and whetehr you take it as inerrant and infallible. I personally cannot believe in a god of grace and love who would do this!
I am not sure I would use the words “inerrant” or “infallible” to describe my view of the scriptures…I think those words can sometimes encourage us to use the bible like a scientific textbook, rather than a complex literary work. However, I take your point. When the bible basically said God did something, then I will accept that at face value. How and why God acts in particular ways are often mysteries, I would say. Perhaps like yourself, I do wonder why God has done certain things in the past, and even why he permits certain things right now (including all the nonsense done in his name!)
Thanks Alastair and Andrew for the last 3 comments. I think Andrew is right about it depending on how we interpret the Bible.
I agree with Alastair too about not wanting to use the Bible as a scientific textbook.
It probably really deserves a longer response than I am able to give here, but i see something called progressive revelation in the Bible. This asserts that God is progressively revealing more of himself throughout Biblical History. So that people in the OT times didn’t have the full revelation of God that we have who live this side of the cross. So we really have to interpret the events of the OT in light of our understanding of God in the NT.
This means that our understanding of judgement has to start with a look at the NT, which i think as Alastair says is really soemthing that happens at the end of all time.
We also need to interpret different situations in thier historical context. For example, how do we understand the ethnic cleansing by Israel in the OT when moving into the promised land? We need to understand this in the historical context of “kill or be killed”. They didn’t have any option: they had to remove the other people groups, or they would in turn be killed themselves. But we don’t live in that kind of culture, and it would be utterly inappropriate for us condone that kind of behaviour, or to believe that the Bible endorses it.
Webb, in his book, “Slaves, Women and Homosexuals” calls this the redemptive trend hermenutic … and i think is very helpful for our interpretation of the biblical texts.
I think too that we have to be very careful about taking certain events in the OT as normative for us today. Often they stories … written from the perspective of the people writing. BUT there isn’t often commentary on what happened, why did it happen, what did God think about that, is kt something to be repeated, etc etc. So for example, the flood is great story, but one that we do know that GOd says he will never do again! So we can’t use it as an example of what might be happening today.
I think this is where Wright’s question: “how is narrative authoritative for us today?” is such an important question for us to grapple with. That way i think we might move away from a very literal interpretation of the Scriptures, but still hold on them being inspired, useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
Hey Rupert, glad to see you mentioned progressive revelation. I find this an indispensable tool in making sense of the bible! I also find it the only way to make sense of the “last days” and “day of the lord” which is spoken about all over the bible.
Have you got a copy of Webb’s book? I am banned from buying new books right now (don’t ask!) but would love to read this book. I just finished reading “Men and women in the church” by Sumners and it referred to Webb’s book a few times.
I really struggle with the ethnic cleansing episodes as well! It seems so unfair of God. But as you say, it did appear to be “kill or be killed”.
I agree with your comment about the dangers of seeing the OT (or even NT) as normative for today…
I haven’t really wrapped my head around Wright’s view on the authority of scripture yet…haven’t heard your preach on it either
Having said all that, I still don’t think you can fudge it when scripture says that God has judged someone or some nation. I a pretty certain Wright would not agree with that perspective. It also means you might as well throw out half of the prophetic literature, since they were only bluffing and when they said God was going to historical judge etc. However, I realise I am going completely off topic here, so perhaps we can blog on this in the future!
Alastair – thanks for your further comments. One quick comment: i don’t think the only options are to take some OT verses very literally OR to “throw out half the prophetic literature”. The key is how we interpret and i think there are other options that takes the bible seriously, but also recognises that it was written in a context, in light of the whole of scripture, and written in a particular genre. i don’t think that is “fudging” the verses.
Where we started on this: are some natural disasters or wars because of God’s judgement? Personally i just don’t believe that. I do however, believe in the law of sowing and reaping … or of consequences. And that is something we need to take seriously.
To clarify my point, I wasn’t saying that unless you interpret prophecy ultra-literally, you may as well throw it out. Indeed, the only way I can make any sense of much of the bible’s prophecy is to look at it through the lens of metaphor, parable, and progressive revelation. Nevertheless, a metaphor of judgement is still a message of judgement. That was my point. Is it not indisputable that Israel was deported to Babylon (invasion/war) because of its unfaithfulness to Yahweh? I just can’t see how you can read the text any other way.
Jesus warned of God’s judgement to come upon Jerusalem and Israel. This was realised by the Roman army(war). Surely another example?
I also believe in the “law of sowing and reaping” but if we do not posit God behind it, what agency empowers this law? Satan? Otherwise sowing and reaping sounds just like Karma.
Check out Parableman’s take on this issue, he can put it better than I can.
Also going back to the original threat, I am not sure Carbon is the new sex, because I don’t think its that controversial. It seems most people these days are waking up to the reality of the carbon crisis. The same cannot be sad, unfortunately, in the realm of sexuality and relationships.
For example, our government are thinking of changing the building codes so that new buildings in just a few years time will have to be carbon neutral. I wish our government had the same enthusiasm to usher in a Godly view of sexuality to our nation.
I would say that eco friendly is the new Godlyness!
“And its not just Israel. I remember reading somewhere in the Prophets the other day that after God had risen up a pagan nation (Assyria? Egypt?) to strike down Israel because of their sin, he then announced (via a prophet) judgement on that nation for their sin and pride in attacking Israel!”
“And its not just Israel. I remember reading somewhere in the Prophets the other day that after God had risen up a pagan nation (Assyria? Egypt?) to strike down Israel because of their sin, he then announced (via a prophet) judgement on that nation for their sin and pride in attacking Israel!”
Thats Ezekiel (I think), post destruction of Jerusalem in 586BC – its a prophecy about God’s judgement against Israel and then a series of Oracles against the surrounding nations
“It also depends on how you interpret the Bible and whetehr you take it as inerrant and infallible. I personally cannot believe in a god of grace and love who would do this!” Hi Andrew – we’ve never met (I don’t think) – it would be good to do so some time! I just wanted to query what you say here. Because if we believe in the atonement of Christ for our sins, then surely we must believe in a God, who didn’t step in to prevent the death of Christ. I think Ruperts point about the NT being the lens through which we judge this is a good one…and we need to look at the Christological implications of this to have an accurate theology of natural disaster/war. Christ was absolutely righteous, yet he died a totally unfair death at the hands of evil men (much like those who are Christian or righteous who die in natural disasters or wars). I haven’t fully thought this through yet, but I do know that if we take the love of God in the NT to be literal, we cannot take his wrath to be metaphorical. God the Father was intimately involved in the events of the cross. Jesus’ refusal to avoid the cross was a response to the will of the Father that this event take place. Like Alastair says, God must be behind the law of reaping and sowing, or else that law is meaningless. Our suffering only has meaning if we see the personality of God behind and through it. So we have to understand somehow the character of God as revealed on the cross in order to understand this issue at its deepest level. I also think we have to understand it all in light of eschatology. God’s promise is to resurrect the dead once all this is over, as he resurrected Christ. Surely the righteous will be resurrected, even if they died amidst a flood, and God allowed that flood to happen. The wicked will also be raised, and they will account for their lives, too. What i would like to say, perhaps, is that God is involved with natural disasters, that his involvement can be traced back to his judgement on Adam and Eve for their sin (and consequently the “fall” of creation, that God does get involved in judging evil in the here and now (do we not sometimes pray that God would bring peace on earth and stop evil? Is this not one way in which evil is halted?), and finally, that our concepts of what God can and cant do because he is “good”, therefore… are usually more about creating God in our own image than truly trying to come to terms with our own fallibility, mortality, and sinfulness. I still need to think this through more. Just some thoughts….
Well guys we have got thoroughly off topic here!!
Just one short comment from me:
I think the issue is one of cause. So Israel went into exile, or the law of sowing and reaping, or natural disasters … for me the point where i find difficulty is if God caused it.
So i don’t see God behind suffering (as you say Paul) to find meaning, but i find God IN THE MIDST of suffering – that seems to me be the message of the incarnation. We constantly want to ask why something happens (who is to blame?). God meanwhile walks in the midst of our pain, uninterested in our questions, but content to be present.
I think the issue is one of cause. So Israel went into exile, or the law of sowing and reaping, or natural disasters … for me the point where i find difficulty is if God caused it.
This is getting confusing. The facts are as follows:
1) Israel went into exile
2) This happened via national invasion
3) The blessings and curses found in Deut (part of/addition to Mosaic covenant between Israel and Yahweh) was the “law” behind this, in that
a) Israel was unfaithful to Yahweh
b) Yahweh, as per his law of sowing and reaping, promised he would send the nation (including those not guilty of the exile-sins) into exile, as a direct result of
their national sin
4) The agency that God used to punish/discipline Israel was Babylon
There must be 100 verses at least which explicitly state this, throughout the OT. Surely there is no debate with the above?
I think my question is: does God cause it? Or allow it?