Dancing in the Aisles

wow that is good and worth a dance in the aisle [whilst you still can]

I just wonder about the tension between the public and private, the social and the personal etc
i have a post brewing on this but I think in the west we have gone mostly for personal and private and not enough for having a foot in both camps…

ps… groupie!!!

I totally agree that the global church should align itself to the priorities you mention from the MDP. Sounds like a healthy dose of mercy and justice. However I do have one reservation… I have noticed a trend for contemporary churches to focus their missional efforts on those who are at the remote ends of the earth, at the expense of those who live in their own neighbourhood. The situation seems has gone so far now that as we jet off missionaries to Africa and South America, they have to fly their own missionaries back to us, to ensure our cities receive the gospel. Am I alone that thinks something is not quite right with this? Apart from anything else its contributing a lot of CO2 to global warming!

Is there a place for a mediating position whereby local churches can identify with the MDP and support a global vision, but also practically and with priority with regard to time and money get their hands “dirty” in their own city?

Another question I would raise, surely God’s Kingdom “goals” surpasses the goals of the MDP. Could we draw up a further manifesto for those in a wealthy city such as Edinburgh, who may still be lacking in many other areas?

And for those in our city that have not even received a quality of life comparable to the MDP goals, how can we mobilise the church and work with the voluntary sector to achieve that?

I am also somewhat perplexed at the statement that the church is obsessed with what is going on in the bedroom. On the contrary, my own experience has been a church where the topic is so taboo that gross damage is being done up and down the country by a refusal to thoroughly engage on this very topic. I have lost count of how many people I know personally that have been negatively affected in this area. Perhaps Malcolm is referring to a previous era of “church” which I am not aware of?

As always from me, lots of questions…

“Is it possible that our failure to engage in issues of justice, serving the poor and reaching out to the marginalised, we have forfeited the right to be heard on any other issue?”

So…what will this look like local to your church? What would good news to the poor look like round your way?

Hey Paul (#1 & #2) .. .yes a bit of a groupie!!

I really agree we have in the west we have gone for personal and private, and that seems not to take seriously the corporate that we see in the NT … how do you see that in relation to our working for social justice?

Thanks Alastair (#3) … great comments and questions …

Some further thoughts from me:

1. I certainly don’t see that our missionary efforts restricted to overseas … but this certainly should be something we grapple with in Edinburgh.

2. Good point about Kingdom goals surpassing these UN goals. We certainly have something to offer (Jesus) that goes beyond … but i don’t think we fight for justice SO THAT people come to Jesus, but we fight for justice regardless of what people choose about Jesus. However, i think we can and should be offering more …

3. I think Malcolm is talking about what we Christians talk about and engage with in the political sphere, rather than what is preached in churches to Christians. This maybe a PR issue, but what tends to get in the news are our opposition to sexual orientation regulations, to civil partnership laws, the CU’s course on PURE etc etc. This I am sure is partly the media agenda, but it does also seem we are more hung up on sexual misdemenours than other things (deceit, slander, racism, social justice, environment, etc etc).

Good question stirer (#4) … and not one that i think i have an easy answer to. It is something we are exploring at the moment.

We have a number of individuals in the congregation who are involved in various areas of social justice, who we (hopefully) support in what they are doing. For example we have folks involved in prison visiting, pregnancy counselling, drug rehab etc.

We are now considering what whether there is anything corporately we can do!

Ideas we are considering: counselling service, debt advice, parenting advice and others …

thanks again Paul!
I think you are on to something here … we have indeed got a bit of indivual mentality in our faith. I often wonder what we could do together, if we can harness together, and demonstrate our faith by our works.

I would actually argue that society around us is considerably more obsessed with sex than the churches are! Sex is now pretty much the basis of the western (and increasingly global) consumer/entertainment economy for one thing. Meanwhile western society pats itself on the back for helping the developing world out here and there, often more as a distraction mechanism so as to more effectively ignore the plank in its own eye. Love, community, family, valuing of life and so on are often more intact and developed in developing countries, where not everything is sold on the basis of sex, and the individual’s pleasure-principle is not in quite such a hegemonic position. We have to be careful of slipping into a neo-colonial approach to poorer countries whereby we think that with our western economics, health services, liberal/democratic values etc we’ve got all the answers. Don’t get me wrong, there is much good in these things, but it’s hardly the whole picture; and it’s hardly the whole gospel either.

BTW, overlapping with the Money topic, if we’re critiquing consumerism in our society, I think we have to take a serious look at the position of sex as, in many ways, the archetypal “consumer product” in our society…

Thanks Adam - good points. I certainly agree that society is obsessed with sex (and you are right, very consumerist!). I just don’t think that the churches response should be always bang on about how society should get its act together about sex. It just polarises the discussion.

So, what i think malcom duncan is bringing is taht we should first show our love is real tangible ways, fight for justice, fairness, peace, heal the wounded, ill, oppressed etc. Then, just maybe, the world will listen to our moralising.

I totally take your point about the arrogance of the developed world in “helping” … i think i see what we are talking about more for our back yard first, rather than overseas. At least that is what i am thinking about.

Hey Rupert,

So many things that could be said here (which is probably why I haven’t got around to posting…) Here’s just a couple.

I believe that all of us in Britain, as among the richest people in the world, have an overwhelming responsibility to use those riches to alleviate the material poverty of the world’s poor. However, this must not go along with a prideful - “neo-colonial”, as I described it - attitude that what really needs to happen is for those countries to become just like us, with our deification of the self, dissatisfaction with what we have, envy, greed, sense of entitlement… There needs to be an openness to recognising that compared to many of the world’s materially poor, our society is in abject cultural and social poverty - that there is so much that we need to be humble enough to learn from many of the world’s poor.

I’m reminded of what Mother Teresa said, I think to the American people: “These concerns [for orphan children in India and elsewhere in the world] are very good, but often these same people are not concerned with the millions that are killed by the deliberate decision of their own mothers. And this is what is the greatest destroyer of peace today, abortion. For the pregnant women who don’t want their children, give them to me.”

It’s very easy (and often quite right!) to criticise the government, the system, capitalism. It’s moderately easy (and even better) to give some money or make financial sacrifices to help people in developing countries. It’s not so easy to step back and take a good long stare at the plank in our own eyes: to sacrifice our pleasure, self-centredness and notion of babies as consumer products - and that’s just one example.

In my experience, the “church banging on about sex” thing is largely a media construct designed to shift copy by pandering to what readers’ itching ears (attached to self-righteous heads) want to hear. PUREgate is a textbook example of this.

Specifically on that issue though, what the church needs to do is to point out to society that its attitude to sex is the epitomy of its enslavement to consumerism, exploitation and selfishness - that the two go hand in hand. If we sort out one without the other we will be white-washed tombs.

Adam, thanks for you further comments. It is a minefield … and I think you are spot on about our responsibility and yet to do it in the right way that isn’t patronising etc. is NOT easy!

I definately see that the MDG are not just for overseas, but for the UK. I am interested how we can be involved in Edinburgh. Perhaps the hardest thing is not just giving money, but getting involved?

Thanks for comments on the media obsession with sex & the church. THere is, i am sure, some truth in what you say, but i don’t think the church has been that smart in how we have handled the issue. In the pure controversy, we say lots of good things about rights of all people to say what they believe etc. and then one comment about homosexuality is the comment that gets aired. We must learn to be more media savaay!!

I think that the connection between sexual mores and consumerist society that Adam makes is an interesting one. Can we divorce the two? I think that one of the most practical and ethical things we can do in reponse to this often unholy alliance is to…get married. Stanley Hauerwas has talked about this. Marriage becomes a counter-consumerist statement - fidelity based not on a material transaction.
Marriage becomes an act of rebellion against prevailing culture, an exciting and dangerous challenge to prevailing society - any christian worth his/her salt should go for it. I’m excited by building a marriage not because my Christian sub-group clique would frown if I dont but because its a radical statement, and an exciting venture - something worth fighting for. So Adam, when are you gonna married? Singleness by calling is one thing…not settling down through apathy(?) or should I say because we are afraid to join the marriage revolution is another…(this last is very tongue in cheek, by the way!)

On this subject (of the church speaking out/forth to the country on sexual issues) …

I think its true that the church has historically dropped the ball in this game. As our small group discussed last week, from Augustine/Origen onwards things seemed to have gone downhill when it comes to a good view of sexuality within marriage. I recognise that there were some exceptions to this (Puritans according to Driscoll?).

In addition, the church has in some quarters been quick to condemn sexual sin, but without actually preaching good sex.

To further mess things up, certain sections of the church have been blatantly hypocritical when it comes to this topic. For example, preachers condemning homosexuality one week and then being found out to be engaged in homosexual relations the next; the whole Catholic priest paedophile nonsense needs no further mention as well.

In summary, we have

- a legacy of at best ignoring this topic, and at worst demonising it.

- a current practice of condemning sexual sin whilst practising

- a general lack of favour to be heard on this topic, as a result of the above.

So I do agree with Rupert that the church needs to recognise where it is at in this domain.

I don’t however, for one minute, think we need to stop banging on about sex. As Adam puts it, this topic is more relevant than ever before, especially with the increased focus on consumerism.

We do, however, need to perhaps assess the best way to approach this topic, given past mistakes of the church.

Mark Driscoll’s 1 Corinthians preach on sexuality “Good sex, bad sex” is a good example of one way to approach the topic, for example.

Beyond personal morality, topics of concern would also include
- abortion
- pornography (the industry as much as the usage)
- prostitution
- sex slavery (huge world market)
- commercialisation of sex (including advertising and all of above)

I’m sure the list could be added too…

Good discussion guys!

Very well said, Paul. “Marriage becomes an act of rebellion against prevailing culture, an exciting and dangerous challenge to prevailing society - any christian worth his/her salt should go for it.” I’m working on it :o)

Alastair, you make some very good points as to how the church has undermined its ability to speak to issues around sexuality. More broadly, as I was saying the other night, though I’m definitely not a fan of blaming religion for all the world’s ills(!) I firmly believe that had the church’s teaching on sexuality for the last couple of thousand years been godly, rather than filled with shame and heresy, our society would not be in this position now. It’s an inevitable and understandable overreaction to what has often been so wrong in the past. Perhaps part of the way forward is for us as Christians, and the church in general, to be more open and vocal in admitting and facing up to the wrongs the church has committed in this area. The rest of society would be right not to listen to us if we have not addressed what has been (and at times still is) the plank in our own eye. There needs to be much more positive embracing and celebration of what, as Mark Driscoll would put it, “good sex” can be. People “out there” - and in the church - are floundering around without an inspiring, amazing vision to shoot for.

But along with a critique of ourselves must come an integrated critique of the society around us. We have a responsibility there which can’t be ignored. The difficulty is that people do not want to hear what they do not want to hear, and will find any excuse to dismiss what we say. I think this is why helping people to see that their attitude towards sex is an intrinsic part of something which they are often prepared to critique (albeit mainly in others!) - i.e. consumerism - can be a way round the defences and hypocrisy, a way of exposing the double standard. It is also helpful for us, since it exposes the underlying root issue: selfishness. If we’re trying to be godly in our lifestyles, spending, sexuality etc, it’s no use just telling ourselves “x is right, y is wrong”: the underlying issues of the heart, of motivation need to be exposed and addressed.

Re MDP goals, I do see these as being very important in the developing world. In fact I hope to spend a goodly part of my professional life living and working as a doc in one or more of these countries and play my part in implementing them. However, in the UK, where they are immeasurably more fully realised, can we really say that we live in a “better” society? Where is the challenge to our own culture, to ourselves? Without the latter, it can become the worst sort of “charity”: what “poor” people (or addicts, or disabled people, or criminals, or [any other marginalised group in the world]) need to do is become just like us; we have nothing to learn from them - or from anyone else. It’s the equivalent of “What you need to do is become a nice middle-class Christian like us and that’s all that really matters.” That sort of charity entrenches our own complacency, and profoundly disrespects the people we are trying to “help”.

My experience of healthcare in the UK is that what people need, far more than the latest pill to treat blood pressure or cholesterol, is vision, meaning and purpose for their lives, relationship, community, … Healing that goes far deeper than wound debridement. Medicine excites me because my experience of being ill is that it can be one of the few times in our lives when we are genuinely open to change.

Hey guys - thanks for the comments. One might conclude that you are all conspiring against me, backing me into a corner, ready to spring: “why don’t you do this in church Rupert?”.

Well it is a good question, and Paul / Alastiar / Adam you all make good points. Infact i probably don’t disagree with anything you have said. I hold pretty traditional views on sexuality … I suppose my question is how best to help people? Do our words actually alienate or judge? Or bring people closer to Jesus? How can we say something meaningful, that will engage people, and get them thinking, even if it is uncomfortable? What is it that God is saying, that we need to get on board with? How can we best represent Him?

I think too, one has be so careful before ploughing ahead in this area. It is a minefield, and the words of Jesus are very real for me: those without sin cast the first stone!

I think too often our words have been stones, and then our own sin has been exposed. We look foolish, hypocrites and the cause of Christ is done more harm than good. I want to be VERY careful about making grand statements in this area, knowing that actually I am as broken & selfish & consumerist as the next person. I suspect i am not alone. Hence, i think, my holding back.

I like your tack Adam on sex and consumerism, and that i think it beginning to look at how we speak of these issues. The reality though, is that you can be married, and still have a consumerist approach to sex (probably doesn’t make it great sex though!). So we need to stop thinking us and them, and somehow know we are speaking to all.

I do still wonder if we aren’t a bit obsessed with sex in the church though (as well as the world)! Jesus really doesn’t talk about it that much, and there are some themes in teh Bible that seem more important to God … injustice, money, poverty, abuse of power, love, forgiveness, mercy, our speech to name a few. I would like to hear us bang on about those a bit more.

There’s so much to say, so little time to say it…

Just one thought, which will probably sound like heresy to some (!). Quite often we measure the validity of a topic by checking how often Jesus spoke about it, or what Jesus said about it, etc. However I am beginning to wonder how valid an approach this is. Why is that you ask?

Because the underling assumption is that Jesus’s primary mission when it came to his preaching was to kind of spout forth eternal, timeless wisdom and teaching that could help the church and the world live in a way pleasing to God. Therefore if it was important to Jesus, it must be important for us.

I’m starting to think that this is actually a highly flawed way of looking at it.

Jesus was rooted in particular time and place, and his life was contextualised by that. According to historical scholars such as N T Wright, Jesus’ primary mission was to bring Israel to repentance, and to pronounce judgement on the corrupt hierarchy in Jerusalem, and to enact the return of Yahweh to Zion. Many if not most of his sayings, in their original context, refer directly to this social-politico context, and have very little to do with our modern-day society. Therefore we cannot use his choice of topics as a guide to what topics we engage in. If we did, we would find ourselves having to almost constantly speak about Israel, the temple and the Jews!

For example Jesus did not speak much about sexuality and marriage in the gospels (apart from the divorce question). But as soon as we look at Acts and the Epistles, the issue of sexuality, idols, etc becomes prominent. Why? Not because they became more important, but because they became RELEVANT topics for the people that were now embracing the gospel (Gentiles).

So in determining what the Church should “bang on about”, I am not sure noting how often Jesus spoke about something has much, if any, relevance. Rather, we should look at contemporary society and ask God what issues concern him, what issues concern us, and what the gospel proclamation would look like in that context, and what the Kingdom of God would like in that context.

Its clear to me (and many others I hope) that the issue of relationships and sexuality is a HUGE topic to be addressed. Pushing aside Christian morals for a second, just looking at the magazines, tv shows, newspapers of our culture, shows us that this topic is a big one. And if the world is obsessed about something, and that thing needs the light of God’s revelation, then the church too must become obsessed with it.

I would agree with Rupert, however, that it high time other topics become predominant as well, such as the Justice-themed topics he mentions.

Finally, no matter what the topic, I don’t see why any stones have to be thrown. I also agree with Adam that confessing and admitting the church’s past errors is also a good thing to do, as part of any talk/preach on whatever subject is in question.

This is a great thread - love Rupert’s point about consumerist sex even within marriage, and Albo on the hermeneutic of what Jesus said being our touchstone…excellent critiques, both. This really could make a fascinating sermon. Is this a post-modern way to write a sermon? Have an actual talk shaped by discussion on-line. Certainly there is a host of good things that Rupert could use here for a very engaging talk on the subject. Seriously, this is good stuff. Maybe monologue preaching can be “saved” by being created in dialogue like this…an alternative to introducing a dialogue format in a church where this might be less practicable because of the size of the congregation. Also, encodes idea of us all having the voice of the Lord. Preaching becomes a sort of oracle of what the community thinks the Lord is saying, mediated through the appointed leadership - bottom up rather than top-down sermons. Finally, its a lot less work for the preacher. Rupes - we aint ganging up on ya. In fact, Adster got a jibe from me, which I’m glad he took with the humour it was intended!

Paul - fantastic! I second everything you’ve just said, so no need to reiterate any of it :o)

Rupert, good point: marriage can only be the beginning of godly sexual expression - and that’s the very reason why the married people among us need to open up this issue for discussion and challenge themselves and each other on it; but without marriage we’re not even on the starting blocks…

It is also undoubtedly true that once we open up these issues regarding consumerism and selfishness - whether they be financial or sexual - we throw ourselves wide open to criticism. But surely that ought to be the very idea: we *should* be exploring these issues as much, if not more so, for ourselves as for the society around us. If that were not the case, the majority of the world’s population could have walked in last Sunday and scorned us for the uber-rich hypocrites we are! Of course, debate in our society usually proceeds along very different lines, whereby one self-righteously makes an argument against another group in society from which ones own group is supposedly exempt: that is the essence of left vs right and right vs left. But Christ blows all that partisan, self-righteous, complacent cr*p out of the water. (Praise Jesus!)

So I think there are two different questions here: how do we first address these issues amongst ourselves, in our own local faith community; and then how does that extend outwards to our friends and the wider community.

Oh, one little point which gives me no end of trouble: for all the talk about Jesus’ lack of teaching on sex, he gives us what must be one of the most ridiculously idealistic, “conservative/reactionary” pieces of teaching on sexuality ever: “Whoever looks at someone else lustfully has already committed adultery with them in his/her heart.” Hmm, giving up a 6-figure salary to live in second-hand clothes dedicating my life to serving the poor in South America is suddenly not looking at all radical in comparison!

Moving on to the relevance of these questions to society as a whole, personally I’m not too concerned at all about homosexual sex outwith lifelong committed partnerships. Neither am I concerned about extramarital heterosexual sex where both parties are committed to supporting each other through an unlikely-but-possible pregnancy followed by adoption of the child, or marriage of the parents. What does concern me is the holocaust (200,000 per year in the UK alone) which takes place in the name of sexual consumerism and lifestyle convenience, and the levels of denial and dehumanisation which are necessary to make this possible. Worldwide this is a defacement of the image of God in us, the extent of which has never before been seen in the whole of history.

In terms of how we can even begin to address this… My goodness… If you really want to know why I want to work in the developing world rather than here - well, the fact that I want to work in a hospital where more lives are saved each day than are deliberately destroyed is at least a significant part of the picture.

I think the starting point has to be the - literally unbelievable - love and forgiveness of God. Along with this has to come a recognition that those in our society are victims, even more than they are perpetrators, of its self-deceit. There’s also the fact that many of the heroes of faith, as held up to us in scripture, were murderers in their time, and we’d do well to remember it. As Bono would say, we live in a society that believes in karma, not grace - and therefore must deny, deny, deny in order to maintain its delusions of righteousness. We should have no need of this.

Hey Adam, thanks for bringing to light the issue of abortion. I haven’t thought about this much, and I appreciate you flagging it up. Makes me thing of that line from the NT: “the wages of sin is death”. I guess we could say that often the wages of sexual sin is the literal death of an unborn child. Its also quite scary that there exists feminisst movements within the UK that are doing everything in their power to maintain and protect a women’s “right” to kill. I read in the paper the other day (Metro!) that this one of these groups was saying that women doing cosmetic surgery was in an equal ethical category to women doing an abortion. Or if anything, its worse to do cosmetic surgery.

Oh my goodness, the world is so jacked up…

Hey, just found this quote from his holyness N T Wright. Its quite pertinent to both the issue I was trying to explain earlier (NT hermeneutics) and also on loving homosexual relationships: (Wow, isn’t this blog post getting interesting!)

“the New Testament is actually very clear about all kinds of sexual misdemeanor. And the New Testament simply reaffirms a great deal that was common coinage in the Judaism of its time as to sexuality. Jesus didn’t need to speak explicitly against homosexuality for the same reason that he didn’t speak against heroin addiction. It was not a problem in the world of his day. Jesus didn’t speak about circumcision though that was a very, very important issue for Paul in the churches of his day because Jesus was working with Jewish people and all the men were circumcised. It wasn’t a question, should you or shouldn’t you be circumcised. So it would be a very trivialized read of Jesus if we imagined that Jesus simply came to give us a set of teachings on every possible subject that we might ever want to know anything about. And that’s not how the early Christians saw Jesus at all. So there are all sorts of lessons that need to be learned about how you use the New Testament authentically and with wisdom instead of cutting and chopping and picking out these bits and then saying, ooh look, there’s nothing about that, or whatever. The question is more, when you actually do that and do the serious historical work and discover what the early Christians thought about why God gave us the gift of sexuality in the first place, et cetera, et cetera, and how it reflects who we are as human beings, then the question is more, did they know anything about the issues that we face? And even if they did, do we have to do what they say? And you see, it would be a more authentic position, I think, to say, as an intellectually authentic position to say the New Testament says that homosexual practice is not what Christians ought to engage in but I disagree for these reasons. Now I can understand that position. I can’t actually understand a position which says the New Testament is either silent or open on the subject because, frankly, it isn’t. The other thing which comes up again and again is people say, well, all they knew about was certain types of homosexual phenomena and not at all the sort of thing that we have, to which the answer is just go and read Plato. Plato’s Symposium has a lengthy discussion of homosexual love which includes as one of the options precisely the kind of long, stable partnership that some people now are advocating. And this in fact is not new. Modern homosexuality was not invented my Michael Fuko, you know. There’s a great deal that goes back through the 18th and 19th centuries with which we’re in a continuum. This is a much deeper and harder issue than people have made out.”

Wow! Where to start guys. Thanks for making this such an interesting conversation …

1. Paul - thanks for the comments on teaching / preaching. I think you are spot on. Personally, I am not sure about the teaching we so often do, that doesn’t actually engage people. I think i might write a post on this and use your comments, to get some more discussion going on this alone. BTW … it was tongue in cheek when i was saying that i was being ganged up on! Not feeling got at; enjoying the conversation!

2. Alastair - great observations about Jesus and what he speaks about, and what he doesn’t. Thanks too for the NT Wright quote. I need to think about that some more. I am sure there is some truth in what you are saying, but i guess too there still may be some truth in looking at what Jesus says and does: what is important to Him? What concerns him? These do seem important questions, even if we can’t rule things out, just because he doesn’t speak about it. I think we can underestimate the sexualised society that Jesus lived in, and it was clearly there as Adam brings out in one of Jesus’ most radical statement. Maybe this too is worthy of a separate post!

3. I am still not convinced that SEX is as big an issue as you make it sound Alastair. I do think it is one issue, but there are others that i am just as bothered about. I maybe reacting to the evangelical movement in the US, which have expictly said the two issues they want to campain about are: gay partnerships and abortion. I just think that is so narrow. What about poverty, social justice, the environment, racism, discrimination, etc? Maybe we are saying the same thing, but just have different passions? I guess i don’t get as worked up about it … but also not saying it is unimportant!

4. Adam - good comments too. I think you are right that there are two questions here: how do open this topic up for discussion in our church community? and how do we engage wider society with this? I do actually think that maybe “discussion” is the key word here. It is about engagement, talking together, listening to different opinions and perspectives …

5. Adam thanks too for bringing in abortion. It maybe the consequences of the sexual freedom we have as a society, but is a huge issue. I wasn’t sure i understood the point you were making before … “personally i am not too concerned at all …”

Hi Ads,

Agree with Rupes…can you elaborate a little more on the following:
“Moving on to the relevance of these questions to society as a whole, personally I’m not too concerned at all about homosexual sex outwith lifelong committed partnerships. Neither am I concerned about extramarital heterosexual sex where both parties are committed to supporting each other through an unlikely-but-possible pregnancy followed by adoption of the child, or marriage of the parents.”

Just didn’t follow the flow, so need clarification b4 I respond.

Rupert, responding to two of your points:

(2) I agree, I think we would be silly to not look at what Jesus did and said because of its historical context. I think my point is that we can’t draw conclusions from what he doesn’t say, nor from the frequency of his topics. As Wright said, he never once mentions things like circumcision, food laws, etc, things we know from Acts etc became huge issues for the early church for quite some time. I agree that we have loads still to learn from his words… Perhaps though, we should pause for a few moments to properly contextualise what he said.

(3) When I say “sex” is a big issue, I am of course talking about the whole domain of

- romantic relationships
- singleness
- marriage
- sex
- sex industry
- sex slavery
- abortions
- familys

I would suggest that the arena of relationships and sexuality is HUGE, both in terms of the positive things we can say, and the way we can challenge the world (as per Adam’s critique), and also to encourage holy Christian living.

To suggest otherwise is to surely deny the world we live in! N T Wright (in “Simply Christian”) suggests the way to contextulise the gospel for the regular (post-modern?) Joe today is to look at its message through four key areas, four areas of longing:

- justice,
- spirituality,
- relationships,
- and beauty.

This helps me understand this discussion. You feel that its the “justice” department which the church needs to big up on. I would fully agree. I would go further though, and say that we also need to emphasise the realm of relationships (inc. sexuality), and even beauty (but that is definately a separate blog posting!).

If you haven’t already, I recommend you check out Wright’s book, its a very good read.

Hey folks,

Hoping to continue the fuller discussion ere long, but for now just to answer your requests for some clarification.

What I meant by that statement was that the potential damage to the participants of extramarital sex pales in comparison to the enormity of the horror of the abortion that may be the eventual chosen consequence.

Does that make sense?

Very much enjoying hearing all of your views - very stimulating!

Alastair,
thanks for raising the discussion on how we understand what Jesus said. I think you raise a good note of caution.

So onto the sex question that has been so much the subject of this post! I think the 4 areas from NT Wright are great. i guess i would want to see relationships much wider than sex: forgiveness, comunication, faithfulness, listening, generosity and kindness, resolving conflict in relationship etc etc.

For example: i am much more bothered about the lack of faithfulness & committed in a relationship (especially where there are children) than i am whether the couple is married or not. While i believe in marriage, i think the damage to children when a couple are not faithful to each other, is way more of a problem than the fact that they weren’t married in the first place. This is i think the place to calling our society to Godly living.

I think this is what Adam is getting at in his clarification.

Also worth saying that i think you list of of areas are all good, and definately worth speaking about. I guess some of those i get a lot more worked up about than others. I personally can’t get that worked up if two consenting adults have sex together outside of a marriage (I am not condoning that). But i get very worked up when it involved children, or abducting women to work in the sex industry.

Adam - thanks for leaving your clarification, which i think has informed my comment above.

I guess the only other thing to add, is that is it our societies obsession with sex, which brings things like abortion, the sex trade, sex slaves, etc into play …

Maybe that is what Alastair is getting at?

To further clarify what I’m getting at…

At a societal level, I’m not too bothered about consensual extra-marital sex per se - though of course for us ourselves, living as Christians, this is a major practical issue, particularly living in the society in which we do.

For me it becomes a major societal issue when there is a third party involved. That third party may be the partner of one or other participant, who is being cheated on. It may be the child whose parent is being unfaithful to their most fundamental and important human responsibility - to their family. Or it may be the child whose conception may result from the pregnancy, whose parents may be designing a life of death for them - abortion - or of less than the best family environment which they could provide. (The exceptions I would make would be in the case that the two people were prepared to support each other through a pregnancy, leading to an adoption. Tragically, this is exceedingly rare. Or if the two people are, literally, explicitly, committed to each other for life and have only not ratified it on paper due to various negative beliefs about the institution of marriage.)

For that reason, I don’t see consensual homosexual sex, or heterosexual sex between pensioners, as a particularly big deal. Heterosexual sex between anyone else, though, is. Not even a combination of contraceptive medication and condom is fully effective, and very few couples (never mind one-night-standees) go even to these lengths. Using one method of contraception - even if one uses the best quality product with religious zeal - 2 out of 100 women will become pregnant within only a year (condoms) or just under 1 out of 100 with combined contraceptive pill (which many women cannot even take for health reasons). And this is ignoring the fact that complete perfection in usage is unattainable for most people; in reality the situation is far worse.

The question I find myself asking though is, what can I do about this? Even the friends to whom I’m close enough to be able to talk about such things with are more often than not in a state of utter denial over the issue - because to even countenance the possibility that there’s something in it would be to ask of themselves a radical change, a radical sacrifice, in the way they live one of the most important aspects of their lives - and let’s face it, most of us, like the rich young ruler, just don’t want to do that. And I must confess, I find it extremely upsetting and depressing to witness this, particularly in people whom I care about and respect.

I think I can broadly agree with Adam and Rupert that its not the end of the world for two people OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH to be engaged in a “comitted” sexual relationship. At the end of the day, why not?

However, I would think that we are fooling ourselves if we think for one moment that because some bloke says he is “committed” to some girl, this means he feels he is spiritually married and will never be unloyal or unfaithful. The sad truth of the matter is that many people are “comitted” until either
(a) a better option comes along
(b) they discover their partner has found a better option (!)

Adam also brings in the child-rearing dimension. Contraception barely works in the best of times, as he rightly points out. I know many people who have had sexual encounters without taking proper precautions.

One guy I worked with was with a girl for about 6 years. Fairly comitted you might say. His girlfriend held a birthday party, and he ended up copping off with one of her mates. He split up with her and ultimately married the other girl. So much for a “long term relationship”.

Of course the problem is not just isolated to non-marital relationships. Another friend of ours is currently going through a divorce. After 5 years of marriage, her husband, suffering from depression, addicted to porn, began an adulterious relationship with a work colleague. His attitude was “my marriage doesn’t work anymore”, I guess he was trying anything to make himself happy.

What a far cry from a covenant relationship (Christian marriage), where each partner vows life-long loyalty, the man sacrificing everything for his wife, the woman submiting to her husband (1 Cor). A beautiful, stable, loving relationship, where God is truly the third party, binding the couple together and taking their eyes of each other and towards Himself.

We are told that this relationship is actually a picture of Christ’s relationship to the Church. Wonderful…

Adam, I relate to your frustration. I, like you, have tried (sometimes with my wife) to convince non-Christian friends the foolishness of their approach to relationships and sex. Ultimately, I do think this is a spiritual issue and one which goes hand-in-hand with the gospel. Only when the Holy Spirit opens a couple eye’s can they see what true Love is and be empowered to reshape their life accordingly.

One success I did have was to give a non Christian friend a Christian book on relationships. It went down a treat!

Rupert, directly responding to your points:

So onto the sex question that has been so much the subject of this post! I think the 4 areas from NT Wright are great. i guess i would want to see relationships much wider than sex: forgiveness, comunication, faithfulness, listening, generosity and kindness, resolving conflict in relationship etc etc.

I think you are assuming that the hypothetical couple already have a committed long term relationship. I think what some of us are trying to say is that a lot of sex is happening in circumstances where one of both partners aren’t even that bothered with the stuff you mention. ANd what’s the good of all those virtues if you’re in a sexual relationship with the wrong person?

For example: i am much more bothered about the lack of faithfulness & committed in a relationship (especially where there are children) than i am whether the couple is married or not

Surely that is the entire point! The definition of a Christian covenant marriage is faithfulness, comittment, sacrificial love, submission, etc. The best environment for a child to grow up in! I am not argueing for couples to have a marriage certificate in hand before they mistreat their children or each other. On the contrary, I am arguing how important for all people to be in a Christian marital relationship. That’s why this comes back to gospel, as Wright points out (as should any Christian topic worth point out, I might add).

I personally can’t get that worked up if two consenting adults have sex together outside of a marriage (I am not condoning that). But i get very worked up when it involved children, or abducting women to work in the sex industry.

One might say that the sex industry began with the revelation that sex could be had outside of a marriage… Seriously though, surely there is a connection between the sex industry and our society’s terrible view of sex and marriage? And yes, I am very concerned about these issues as well.

Sorry for multiple post, but I just saw this statistic in this Times article:

Less than 5 per cent of cohabiting couples stay together for longer than ten years.

Underscoring my point (and Adam’s?) that a so-called “committed” couple is really, in 95% of cases, is really only committed for a short to mid term relationship. The chances of conceiving within those 10 years must be very high, even using contraception. No matter what decisions are taken, its not going to be good for the kids, assuming they are even born.

It does show that for a small percentage, they probably are “married in their hearts”, as per Adam’s comment. But for the remainder of British people, sex and relationships needs the full attention of the Church.

Guys - good stuff. Why aren’t there commment numbers, so that it is easier to note which comment is which????

So Adam - i think i am in complete agreement with you there (your further clarification), and i think you have probably expressed what i am trying to say much better than i have!

I wonder if a lot of the discussion on this topic is actually down to not being clear about what domain we are talking about? I don’t for one minute think it is a good idea for folks in the church to have sex outside the context of marriage - and i do think we need to help folks with that (teach, be friends, hold accountable etc etc).

I agree with Alastair totally about the gospel coming first for folks outside the church. Until someone follows Jesus, it is impossible to invite them to the beautiful description of marriage you give.

I still think that things like forgiveness, generosity, faithfulness are important things to be talking to our society about … precisely because people are having social sex (ie. not in the context of a committed relationship as you say Alastair). I think rather than telling them sex is wrong we should be calling people to a different way of relating to others, that isn’t about what i get from a relationship (or a one night stand), but what i can give to it. That for me, is what a relationship is all about, and is the starting point of good critique of our society. Everything else is a pale reflection of the real thing.

Yes I’ve realised that there has been a confusion of domains/context here. I think that does explain some of the debate!

However, perhaps some of the discussion is around exactly how the church’s message on this topic changes as we go from

1 - message to local believers
2 - message to local community
3 - message to nation/world ?

There’s little point hammering on about the sex industry if Christians cannot even keep to their own sexual ethic. (Plank and speck and all that.) That was part of my point earlier: the church has lost its favour to speak out on this issue. I think its time to get our own house clean on this topic, before proceeding to critique society.

Wow, I think perhaps the three of us ought to start up our own blog!

On the “how do we help each other” question, planks in our own eye etc… The statistic that marriages between self-described Christians in the USA are about as likely to end in divorce as non-Christians’ shows that merely having a Christian ideal of marriage-for-life is nowhere near sufficient to effect its fulfillment. (Rupert, I think you made a related point by saying that just because sex occurs within marriage, that doesn’t necessarily make it good.) It seems that what is needed for a marriage to work is not just two people and God, but two people in community with others, in community with God. To this end, what we have available in CCE in the way of marriage prep, and the marriage course, is a great start. Moreover, from chatting to my parents, I know that the marriage course is designed to be accessible also to people who wouldn’t call themselves Christians. Perhaps this could be a model of how the church can be of help to the wider society: inviting others to be welcome to participate in a journey which we ourselves are on.