On the “how do we help each other” question, planks in our own eye etc… The statistic that marriages between self-described Christians in the USA are about as likely to end in divorce as non-Christians’ shows that merely having a Christian ideal of marriage-for-life is nowhere near sufficient to effect its fulfillment. (Rupert, I think you made a related point by saying that just because sex occurs within marriage, that doesn’t necessarily make it good.) It seems that what is needed for a marriage to work is not just two people and God, but two people in community with others, in community with God. To this end, what we have available in CCE in the way of marriage prep, and the marriage course, is a great start. Moreover, from chatting to my parents, I know that the marriage course is designed to be accessible also to people who wouldn’t call themselves Christians. Perhaps this could be a model of how the church can be of help to the wider society: inviting others to be welcome to participate in a journey which we ourselves are on.

However, perhaps some of the discussion is around exactly how the church’s message on this topic changes as we go from

1 - message to local believers
2 - message to local community
3 - message to nation/world ?

There’s little point hammering on about the sex industry if Christians cannot even keep to their own sexual ethic. (Plank and speck and all that.) That was part of my point earlier: the church has lost its favour to speak out on this issue. I think its time to get our own house clean on this topic, before proceeding to critique society.

So Adam - i think i am in complete agreement with you there (your further clarification), and i think you have probably expressed what i am trying to say much better than i have!

I wonder if a lot of the discussion on this topic is actually down to not being clear about what domain we are talking about? I don’t for one minute think it is a good idea for folks in the church to have sex outside the context of marriage - and i do think we need to help folks with that (teach, be friends, hold accountable etc etc).

I agree with Alastair totally about the gospel coming first for folks outside the church. Until someone follows Jesus, it is impossible to invite them to the beautiful description of marriage you give.

I still think that things like forgiveness, generosity, faithfulness are important things to be talking to our society about … precisely because people are having social sex (ie. not in the context of a committed relationship as you say Alastair). I think rather than telling them sex is wrong we should be calling people to a different way of relating to others, that isn’t about what i get from a relationship (or a one night stand), but what i can give to it. That for me, is what a relationship is all about, and is the starting point of good critique of our society. Everything else is a pale reflection of the real thing.

Less than 5 per cent of cohabiting couples stay together for longer than ten years.

Underscoring my point (and Adam’s?) that a so-called “committed” couple is really, in 95% of cases, is really only committed for a short to mid term relationship. The chances of conceiving within those 10 years must be very high, even using contraception. No matter what decisions are taken, its not going to be good for the kids, assuming they are even born.

It does show that for a small percentage, they probably are “married in their hearts”, as per Adam’s comment. But for the remainder of British people, sex and relationships needs the full attention of the Church.

So onto the sex question that has been so much the subject of this post! I think the 4 areas from NT Wright are great. i guess i would want to see relationships much wider than sex: forgiveness, comunication, faithfulness, listening, generosity and kindness, resolving conflict in relationship etc etc.

I think you are assuming that the hypothetical couple already have a committed long term relationship. I think what some of us are trying to say is that a lot of sex is happening in circumstances where one of both partners aren’t even that bothered with the stuff you mention. ANd what’s the good of all those virtues if you’re in a sexual relationship with the wrong person?

For example: i am much more bothered about the lack of faithfulness & committed in a relationship (especially where there are children) than i am whether the couple is married or not

Surely that is the entire point! The definition of a Christian covenant marriage is faithfulness, comittment, sacrificial love, submission, etc. The best environment for a child to grow up in! I am not argueing for couples to have a marriage certificate in hand before they mistreat their children or each other. On the contrary, I am arguing how important for all people to be in a Christian marital relationship. That’s why this comes back to gospel, as Wright points out (as should any Christian topic worth point out, I might add).

I personally can’t get that worked up if two consenting adults have sex together outside of a marriage (I am not condoning that). But i get very worked up when it involved children, or abducting women to work in the sex industry.

One might say that the sex industry began with the revelation that sex could be had outside of a marriage… Seriously though, surely there is a connection between the sex industry and our society’s terrible view of sex and marriage? And yes, I am very concerned about these issues as well.

However, I would think that we are fooling ourselves if we think for one moment that because some bloke says he is “committed” to some girl, this means he feels he is spiritually married and will never be unloyal or unfaithful. The sad truth of the matter is that many people are “comitted” until either
(a) a better option comes along
(b) they discover their partner has found a better option (!)

Adam also brings in the child-rearing dimension. Contraception barely works in the best of times, as he rightly points out. I know many people who have had sexual encounters without taking proper precautions.

One guy I worked with was with a girl for about 6 years. Fairly comitted you might say. His girlfriend held a birthday party, and he ended up copping off with one of her mates. He split up with her and ultimately married the other girl. So much for a “long term relationship”.

Of course the problem is not just isolated to non-marital relationships. Another friend of ours is currently going through a divorce. After 5 years of marriage, her husband, suffering from depression, addicted to porn, began an adulterious relationship with a work colleague. His attitude was “my marriage doesn’t work anymore”, I guess he was trying anything to make himself happy.

What a far cry from a covenant relationship (Christian marriage), where each partner vows life-long loyalty, the man sacrificing everything for his wife, the woman submiting to her husband (1 Cor). A beautiful, stable, loving relationship, where God is truly the third party, binding the couple together and taking their eyes of each other and towards Himself.

We are told that this relationship is actually a picture of Christ’s relationship to the Church. Wonderful…

Adam, I relate to your frustration. I, like you, have tried (sometimes with my wife) to convince non-Christian friends the foolishness of their approach to relationships and sex. Ultimately, I do think this is a spiritual issue and one which goes hand-in-hand with the gospel. Only when the Holy Spirit opens a couple eye’s can they see what true Love is and be empowered to reshape their life accordingly.

One success I did have was to give a non Christian friend a Christian book on relationships. It went down a treat!

At a societal level, I’m not too bothered about consensual extra-marital sex per se - though of course for us ourselves, living as Christians, this is a major practical issue, particularly living in the society in which we do.

For me it becomes a major societal issue when there is a third party involved. That third party may be the partner of one or other participant, who is being cheated on. It may be the child whose parent is being unfaithful to their most fundamental and important human responsibility - to their family. Or it may be the child whose conception may result from the pregnancy, whose parents may be designing a life of death for them - abortion - or of less than the best family environment which they could provide. (The exceptions I would make would be in the case that the two people were prepared to support each other through a pregnancy, leading to an adoption. Tragically, this is exceedingly rare. Or if the two people are, literally, explicitly, committed to each other for life and have only not ratified it on paper due to various negative beliefs about the institution of marriage.)

For that reason, I don’t see consensual homosexual sex, or heterosexual sex between pensioners, as a particularly big deal. Heterosexual sex between anyone else, though, is. Not even a combination of contraceptive medication and condom is fully effective, and very few couples (never mind one-night-standees) go even to these lengths. Using one method of contraception - even if one uses the best quality product with religious zeal - 2 out of 100 women will become pregnant within only a year (condoms) or just under 1 out of 100 with combined contraceptive pill (which many women cannot even take for health reasons). And this is ignoring the fact that complete perfection in usage is unattainable for most people; in reality the situation is far worse.

The question I find myself asking though is, what can I do about this? Even the friends to whom I’m close enough to be able to talk about such things with are more often than not in a state of utter denial over the issue - because to even countenance the possibility that there’s something in it would be to ask of themselves a radical change, a radical sacrifice, in the way they live one of the most important aspects of their lives - and let’s face it, most of us, like the rich young ruler, just don’t want to do that. And I must confess, I find it extremely upsetting and depressing to witness this, particularly in people whom I care about and respect.

I guess the only other thing to add, is that is it our societies obsession with sex, which brings things like abortion, the sex trade, sex slaves, etc into play …

Maybe that is what Alastair is getting at?

So onto the sex question that has been so much the subject of this post! I think the 4 areas from NT Wright are great. i guess i would want to see relationships much wider than sex: forgiveness, comunication, faithfulness, listening, generosity and kindness, resolving conflict in relationship etc etc.

For example: i am much more bothered about the lack of faithfulness & committed in a relationship (especially where there are children) than i am whether the couple is married or not. While i believe in marriage, i think the damage to children when a couple are not faithful to each other, is way more of a problem than the fact that they weren’t married in the first place. This is i think the place to calling our society to Godly living.

I think this is what Adam is getting at in his clarification.

Also worth saying that i think you list of of areas are all good, and definately worth speaking about. I guess some of those i get a lot more worked up about than others. I personally can’t get that worked up if two consenting adults have sex together outside of a marriage (I am not condoning that). But i get very worked up when it involved children, or abducting women to work in the sex industry.

Hoping to continue the fuller discussion ere long, but for now just to answer your requests for some clarification.

What I meant by that statement was that the potential damage to the participants of extramarital sex pales in comparison to the enormity of the horror of the abortion that may be the eventual chosen consequence.

Does that make sense?

Very much enjoying hearing all of your views - very stimulating!

(2) I agree, I think we would be silly to not look at what Jesus did and said because of its historical context. I think my point is that we can’t draw conclusions from what he doesn’t say, nor from the frequency of his topics. As Wright said, he never once mentions things like circumcision, food laws, etc, things we know from Acts etc became huge issues for the early church for quite some time. I agree that we have loads still to learn from his words… Perhaps though, we should pause for a few moments to properly contextualise what he said.

(3) When I say “sex” is a big issue, I am of course talking about the whole domain of

- romantic relationships
- singleness
- marriage
- sex
- sex industry
- sex slavery
- abortions
- familys

I would suggest that the arena of relationships and sexuality is HUGE, both in terms of the positive things we can say, and the way we can challenge the world (as per Adam’s critique), and also to encourage holy Christian living.

To suggest otherwise is to surely deny the world we live in! N T Wright (in “Simply Christian”) suggests the way to contextulise the gospel for the regular (post-modern?) Joe today is to look at its message through four key areas, four areas of longing:

- justice,
- spirituality,
- relationships,
- and beauty.

This helps me understand this discussion. You feel that its the “justice” department which the church needs to big up on. I would fully agree. I would go further though, and say that we also need to emphasise the realm of relationships (inc. sexuality), and even beauty (but that is definately a separate blog posting!).

If you haven’t already, I recommend you check out Wright’s book, its a very good read.

Agree with Rupes…can you elaborate a little more on the following:
“Moving on to the relevance of these questions to society as a whole, personally I’m not too concerned at all about homosexual sex outwith lifelong committed partnerships. Neither am I concerned about extramarital heterosexual sex where both parties are committed to supporting each other through an unlikely-but-possible pregnancy followed by adoption of the child, or marriage of the parents.”

Just didn’t follow the flow, so need clarification b4 I respond.

1. Paul - thanks for the comments on teaching / preaching. I think you are spot on. Personally, I am not sure about the teaching we so often do, that doesn’t actually engage people. I think i might write a post on this and use your comments, to get some more discussion going on this alone. BTW … it was tongue in cheek when i was saying that i was being ganged up on! Not feeling got at; enjoying the conversation!

2. Alastair - great observations about Jesus and what he speaks about, and what he doesn’t. Thanks too for the NT Wright quote. I need to think about that some more. I am sure there is some truth in what you are saying, but i guess too there still may be some truth in looking at what Jesus says and does: what is important to Him? What concerns him? These do seem important questions, even if we can’t rule things out, just because he doesn’t speak about it. I think we can underestimate the sexualised society that Jesus lived in, and it was clearly there as Adam brings out in one of Jesus’ most radical statement. Maybe this too is worthy of a separate post!

3. I am still not convinced that SEX is as big an issue as you make it sound Alastair. I do think it is one issue, but there are others that i am just as bothered about. I maybe reacting to the evangelical movement in the US, which have expictly said the two issues they want to campain about are: gay partnerships and abortion. I just think that is so narrow. What about poverty, social justice, the environment, racism, discrimination, etc? Maybe we are saying the same thing, but just have different passions? I guess i don’t get as worked up about it … but also not saying it is unimportant!

4. Adam - good comments too. I think you are right that there are two questions here: how do open this topic up for discussion in our church community? and how do we engage wider society with this? I do actually think that maybe “discussion” is the key word here. It is about engagement, talking together, listening to different opinions and perspectives …

5. Adam thanks too for bringing in abortion. It maybe the consequences of the sexual freedom we have as a society, but is a huge issue. I wasn’t sure i understood the point you were making before … “personally i am not too concerned at all …”

“the New Testament is actually very clear about all kinds of sexual misdemeanor. And the New Testament simply reaffirms a great deal that was common coinage in the Judaism of its time as to sexuality. Jesus didn’t need to speak explicitly against homosexuality for the same reason that he didn’t speak against heroin addiction. It was not a problem in the world of his day. Jesus didn’t speak about circumcision though that was a very, very important issue for Paul in the churches of his day because Jesus was working with Jewish people and all the men were circumcised. It wasn’t a question, should you or shouldn’t you be circumcised. So it would be a very trivialized read of Jesus if we imagined that Jesus simply came to give us a set of teachings on every possible subject that we might ever want to know anything about. And that’s not how the early Christians saw Jesus at all. So there are all sorts of lessons that need to be learned about how you use the New Testament authentically and with wisdom instead of cutting and chopping and picking out these bits and then saying, ooh look, there’s nothing about that, or whatever. The question is more, when you actually do that and do the serious historical work and discover what the early Christians thought about why God gave us the gift of sexuality in the first place, et cetera, et cetera, and how it reflects who we are as human beings, then the question is more, did they know anything about the issues that we face? And even if they did, do we have to do what they say? And you see, it would be a more authentic position, I think, to say, as an intellectually authentic position to say the New Testament says that homosexual practice is not what Christians ought to engage in but I disagree for these reasons. Now I can understand that position. I can’t actually understand a position which says the New Testament is either silent or open on the subject because, frankly, it isn’t. The other thing which comes up again and again is people say, well, all they knew about was certain types of homosexual phenomena and not at all the sort of thing that we have, to which the answer is just go and read Plato. Plato’s Symposium has a lengthy discussion of homosexual love which includes as one of the options precisely the kind of long, stable partnership that some people now are advocating. And this in fact is not new. Modern homosexuality was not invented my Michael Fuko, you know. There’s a great deal that goes back through the 18th and 19th centuries with which we’re in a continuum. This is a much deeper and harder issue than people have made out.”

Oh my goodness, the world is so jacked up…

I think the starting point has to be the - literally unbelievable - love and forgiveness of God. Along with this has to come a recognition that those in our society are victims, even more than they are perpetrators, of its self-deceit. There’s also the fact that many of the heroes of faith, as held up to us in scripture, were murderers in their time, and we’d do well to remember it. As Bono would say, we live in a society that believes in karma, not grace - and therefore must deny, deny, deny in order to maintain its delusions of righteousness. We should have no need of this.

Rupert, good point: marriage can only be the beginning of godly sexual expression - and that’s the very reason why the married people among us need to open up this issue for discussion and challenge themselves and each other on it; but without marriage we’re not even on the starting blocks…

It is also undoubtedly true that once we open up these issues regarding consumerism and selfishness - whether they be financial or sexual - we throw ourselves wide open to criticism. But surely that ought to be the very idea: we *should* be exploring these issues as much, if not more so, for ourselves as for the society around us. If that were not the case, the majority of the world’s population could have walked in last Sunday and scorned us for the uber-rich hypocrites we are! Of course, debate in our society usually proceeds along very different lines, whereby one self-righteously makes an argument against another group in society from which ones own group is supposedly exempt: that is the essence of left vs right and right vs left. But Christ blows all that partisan, self-righteous, complacent cr*p out of the water. (Praise Jesus!)

So I think there are two different questions here: how do we first address these issues amongst ourselves, in our own local faith community; and then how does that extend outwards to our friends and the wider community.

Oh, one little point which gives me no end of trouble: for all the talk about Jesus’ lack of teaching on sex, he gives us what must be one of the most ridiculously idealistic, “conservative/reactionary” pieces of teaching on sexuality ever: “Whoever looks at someone else lustfully has already committed adultery with them in his/her heart.” Hmm, giving up a 6-figure salary to live in second-hand clothes dedicating my life to serving the poor in South America is suddenly not looking at all radical in comparison!

Moving on to the relevance of these questions to society as a whole, personally I’m not too concerned at all about homosexual sex outwith lifelong committed partnerships. Neither am I concerned about extramarital heterosexual sex where both parties are committed to supporting each other through an unlikely-but-possible pregnancy followed by adoption of the child, or marriage of the parents. What does concern me is the holocaust (200,000 per year in the UK alone) which takes place in the name of sexual consumerism and lifestyle convenience, and the levels of denial and dehumanisation which are necessary to make this possible. Worldwide this is a defacement of the image of God in us, the extent of which has never before been seen in the whole of history.

Just one thought, which will probably sound like heresy to some (!). Quite often we measure the validity of a topic by checking how often Jesus spoke about it, or what Jesus said about it, etc. However I am beginning to wonder how valid an approach this is. Why is that you ask?

Because the underling assumption is that Jesus’s primary mission when it came to his preaching was to kind of spout forth eternal, timeless wisdom and teaching that could help the church and the world live in a way pleasing to God. Therefore if it was important to Jesus, it must be important for us.

I’m starting to think that this is actually a highly flawed way of looking at it.

Jesus was rooted in particular time and place, and his life was contextualised by that. According to historical scholars such as N T Wright, Jesus’ primary mission was to bring Israel to repentance, and to pronounce judgement on the corrupt hierarchy in Jerusalem, and to enact the return of Yahweh to Zion. Many if not most of his sayings, in their original context, refer directly to this social-politico context, and have very little to do with our modern-day society. Therefore we cannot use his choice of topics as a guide to what topics we engage in. If we did, we would find ourselves having to almost constantly speak about Israel, the temple and the Jews!

For example Jesus did not speak much about sexuality and marriage in the gospels (apart from the divorce question). But as soon as we look at Acts and the Epistles, the issue of sexuality, idols, etc becomes prominent. Why? Not because they became more important, but because they became RELEVANT topics for the people that were now embracing the gospel (Gentiles).

So in determining what the Church should “bang on about”, I am not sure noting how often Jesus spoke about something has much, if any, relevance. Rather, we should look at contemporary society and ask God what issues concern him, what issues concern us, and what the gospel proclamation would look like in that context, and what the Kingdom of God would like in that context.

Its clear to me (and many others I hope) that the issue of relationships and sexuality is a HUGE topic to be addressed. Pushing aside Christian morals for a second, just looking at the magazines, tv shows, newspapers of our culture, shows us that this topic is a big one. And if the world is obsessed about something, and that thing needs the light of God’s revelation, then the church too must become obsessed with it.

I would agree with Rupert, however, that it high time other topics become predominant as well, such as the Justice-themed topics he mentions.

Finally, no matter what the topic, I don’t see why any stones have to be thrown. I also agree with Adam that confessing and admitting the church’s past errors is also a good thing to do, as part of any talk/preach on whatever subject is in question.

Well it is a good question, and Paul / Alastiar / Adam you all make good points. Infact i probably don’t disagree with anything you have said. I hold pretty traditional views on sexuality … I suppose my question is how best to help people? Do our words actually alienate or judge? Or bring people closer to Jesus? How can we say something meaningful, that will engage people, and get them thinking, even if it is uncomfortable? What is it that God is saying, that we need to get on board with? How can we best represent Him?

I think too, one has be so careful before ploughing ahead in this area. It is a minefield, and the words of Jesus are very real for me: those without sin cast the first stone!

I think too often our words have been stones, and then our own sin has been exposed. We look foolish, hypocrites and the cause of Christ is done more harm than good. I want to be VERY careful about making grand statements in this area, knowing that actually I am as broken & selfish & consumerist as the next person. I suspect i am not alone. Hence, i think, my holding back.

I like your tack Adam on sex and consumerism, and that i think it beginning to look at how we speak of these issues. The reality though, is that you can be married, and still have a consumerist approach to sex (probably doesn’t make it great sex though!). So we need to stop thinking us and them, and somehow know we are speaking to all.

I do still wonder if we aren’t a bit obsessed with sex in the church though (as well as the world)! Jesus really doesn’t talk about it that much, and there are some themes in teh Bible that seem more important to God … injustice, money, poverty, abuse of power, love, forgiveness, mercy, our speech to name a few. I would like to hear us bang on about those a bit more.