Matthew just says they were doubters.

Luke just quietly drops them from Acts.

All just made up, as made up as the story of Jesus ascending into the sky, on his way to Heaven.

I have read Wright, and take your point that Jesus confined his message to the customs of his time.

Hence his complaints about not having water to wash, and his forgiveing people who believed he was the Messiah come to throw out the Romans.

As I amnot a first-century Jew, Jesus message is not for me.

At least now I can wash my hands before meals.

I am not sure you are interested in hearing from me at all, but I will attempt to respond to your questions.

“Perhaps Jesus could have spent his time complaining about slavery, or child-conscription, rather than complaining that he had no water to wash his feet with , and then forgiving people their sins, just because they do him a good turn and wash his feet.”

It seems like you have a picture of Jesus being someone who came to Earth in order to spout forth eternal timeless truths to those that would listen. This idea of Jesus has been discredited by theologians and historians alike. If you seriously want to look into this, I suggest reading N T Wright’s “Jesus and the Victory of God” for a realistic look at Jesus from a critical viewpoint.

“Unless it wasn’t the custom?”

Are you seriously suggesting that foot-washing was not an ancient near-eastern custom? If you have a credible historical scholar who is arguing this, please provide a citation or reference. Its the first I have heard of this!

“What faith did the woman have in Jesus? Faith in Jesus as what?”

I really like how you have asked this question. I assume you are questing the view that somehow she was believing in Jesus to forgive her sins because he was God, and that she was seeking spiritual salvation. I suspect you are right. Again, we are firm historical ground here, I would expect Wright to cover this sort of thing: I recall he talked about all the different expectations that Jews had of their Messiah.

You rightly point out that it is surprising that all of the disciples desert Jesus, but historically speaking, such an event is so damaging to the authority of the early church that I doubt any historian would charge it was made up by the self-same early church. The only reason this is in the biblical texts must surely be because something like this actually happened.

I would like to here your thoughts on what the women thought of Jesus, assuming you believe the pericope to have some sort of historical standing in the first place.

“Christians should learn that all atheists see when they read the Gospels are stories of a self-righteous prig who puts himself first, and thinks that belief in him is the most important thing in the universe, and damns people who follow other religious paths.”.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but given how Jesus spent his life either working for his step-father (until he was 30), or in ministry for a few years, where he spent most of the time working tirelessly in healing his countryman and telling them how to reconnect with God and avoid the judgement of Rome which was shortly to fall upon them (and many other thing as well!), I find this an absurd charge to lay upon Jesus. Also, you should note that the only people literally damned by Jesus himself were some of the pharisees, who were the self-righteous prigs of whom you speak.

I think the best thing to do (as I don’t expect you to take my word for it) is to read some N T Wright, as he anticipates and responds to the majority of your questions.

How many prostitutes are ’saved’ in your church?

Or do they have to cease being prostitutes before the church ceases excluding them from the ranks of the ’saved’?

As it was the CUSTOM to wash feet when entering a tent or house, then the story becomes that more unbelivable when it depicts Jesus not being offered water.

The stronger the custom, the more unbelievable the story.

Unless it wasn’t the custom?

What faith did the woman have in Jesus?

Faith in Jesus as what?

What had Jesus done that she had faith in him? Did she believe he was the Messiah come to throw out the Romans in a violent revolt, a la Macabbees?

Did she have more faith than the disciples, who deserted Jesus? How can this be credible when they had allegedly been personally given the power to raise the dead (Matthew 10)

Did she have faith that if she did Jesus a personal favour and washed his feet then Jesus would forgive her her sins, although Jesus would not dream of forgiving people their sins if they washed any other person’s feet?

Christians should learn that all atheists see when they read the Gospels are stories of a self-righteous prig who puts himself first, and thinks that belief in him is the most important thing in the universe, and damns people who follow other religious paths.

It is an off-putting attitude.

I think that puts a rather different perspective on the story…

“7:44 Then,turning toward the woman, he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house. You gave me no water for my feet,but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 7:45 You gave me no kiss of greeting,but from the time I entered she has not stopped kissing my feet. 7:46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my with perfumed oil.”

I think the point was that Simon, in terms of ancient near-eastern culture, was not being a good host, but “this woman”, more than just being a good host, was showing her affection for Jesus. The woman was “a sinner”, i.e. a prostitute, and Jesus was pointing out to Simon, who was moaing about her being there, that if anyone was “sinning” it was Simon himself, who was not being a good host. But his point was not about good hospitality. His point was about the love and acceptance he had for a woman who had been excluded from her society. Through her encounter with Jesus, she found acceptance and “salvation”. Jesus tells her that her faith had saved her — controversial, since everyone else way saying that her sins were damning her.

Its a beautiful pericope, and I think to focus in on Jesus moaning about Simon not washing his feet is to not see the forest for the trees! Its about social exclusion, and about a religous attitude that says that certain people aren’t worthy to be connected to God, and Jesus’ fairly harsh response, and wonderful remedy, to that.

Elsewhere Jesus complains about people washing their hands before eating.

are you referring to this:

Luke 11:37
” When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised.”

Its the Pharisees that are moaning about washing, not Jesus!

Yet that sort of rubbish poured from the lips of Jesus.

This is not surprising when we read the Bible.

Jesus came down from Heaven to Earth to impart a divine message, and according to Luke 7, spent his time complaining that he wasn’t given any water to wash his feet with.

Hardly very relevant to the world’s problems.

Nor is it very relevant when Jesus whines in Luke 11 about not washing his hands.

Is this really the message to save the world?

Offer your guests water to wash their feet before dinner (Luke 7)
Don’t offer your guests water to wash their hands before dinner (Luke 11)
Wash your face if you don’t have any dinner (Matthew 6)

Add to that Jesus commands to be fired with salt (or is it to be salted with fire?), and you have a message that many young people will be amazed to learn.

that of course opens up atheists to people who are fundamantalist about no God just as there are plenty who believe in God…

Col- you are too kind!

Alastiar - good points well made.

I think the main conflict on science and religion is when we fail to understand the purpose of both, especially as we consider the origins of the world and human beings, which is seems is main place of conflict. Faith asks the question: why? Why did God create the world? Why are human being different from animals? Science asks the question: how? How did the world start? How are human being different from animals? etc

We get into trouble when we stray into each others territory.

Also thanks for the tip to the Ed Stetzer’s blog … good post. So true that often we all compare the best of our camp with the worst of our “enemies” … and thus Christians are often tarred with the hypocritical tag, when actually there are many fine examples of people living out their faith.

Alyssa and I enjoyed the programme very much, it was nice to see some TV where Christians weren’t getting bashed for once.

The media always hammers on about science versus religion, but since many scientists are religous, and some clerics also scientists, its obviously not really the huge conflict some would suggest. I think the conflict is more about philosophy and wordview…secular humanism vs theism perhaps?

I suppose there is a conflict at one level, where Christians reading scriptures “literally” or out of context derive scientific statements/beliefs about the world, which may or may not be true, and which may or may not be accepted by the scientific establishment. For example, one may read Genesis 1 and come away with the belief that the world, including humanity, was created in 6×24 hours. This would then be a conflict with science as far as the scientific consensus goes.

Another “conflict” may be where science makes statements which encroach on religious or spiritual territory. For example, the theory of evolution is used to attack Christian ethics, on the basis that there is nothing unique and special about man. This is a conflict of sorts, as the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.

In summary, although there is no major clash between science and religion, there are many places where the two disciplines overlap, and many opportunities for conflict and debate.

After the show ended we saw a trailer for a TV show called “The Secret Jesus Family” or something along those lines. Apparently its going to be shown Christmas Day on C4. It promised to shock us and make us question everything about Christianity, etc, etc. Major yawn…I wish the media would stop obsessing about historical secrets and cover-ups…any old fool can buy all the ancient texts from Amazon and read them for himself…